Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 10:37:08 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Joe Subject: I've got boxes of this stuff Joe. Message:

I was always a naughty boy, and kept the tapes of the conferences whenever there was a purge. I've got hours and hours of stuff. Some of it wasn't even officialy released to delegates. Jean-Michel went through it last year, and took some home for transcription. Anth the archivist.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 13:55:23 (GMT) From: ulf Email: None To: AJW Subject: I've got boxes of this stuff Joe. Message:

hi Anth OH, i was hoping for a medal, being the only one who kept the tapes for all these years. does this mean , that i dont get it? Cheers Ulf

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:29:29 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: ulf Subject: No it means you GET it Message:

I threw all mine out, unfortunately, never realizing what true ammo was there. Most of it was just public satsangs, but I'll bet some of the ones he gave impromptu in LA were corkers. I had all the drippy music, including my own, 'the Grace tape,' etc. barf barf. I think the grace tape was a bunch of stuff of Maharaji talking or singing when he was younger, counting, etc. Kind of like a bliss bomb just to hear it. Yeah right. And unfortunately I threw out some handwritten thing about the importance of the 'shram that was in my possession in 1982. It was a precious object to those starving for some sort of direction and meaning in their lives. Double yucko. Does anyone remember what it said? It was back in the days when he was signing things 'Sant Ji Maharaj.' Quaint.

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 20:15:00 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Excellente! Message:

Yes! I remember that meeting, not that I went to it. But, as an ashram premie then, I definitely remember hearing from our reps when they got back, maybe hearing a tape of the meeting itself. Thoe of us who had hung in in th eashram by a hair felt so somberly relieved. Like, we'd almost blown it or something. These were heavy, heavy times, oh yes they were. Atl;antic City itself was jut a gruesome get together. Thanks for posting this Joe, and thanks ULF for sending it to him.

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 16:54:16 (GMT) From: cq Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk To: Joe Subject: To ULF -- Coordinators meeting Dec, 1976 - WOW Message:

Joe, thanks for the 'Reader's Digest' version, (no offense) but if you'd like me to type up his actual words verbatim and post them here, I think that would give a much more accurate flavour of what was coming down to the co-ordinators at that time - and consequently from them to the premies at large. email me for my postal address, yes?

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 15:45:10 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Joe Subject: I remember all this stuff - yuck is right! Message:

A lot of married premies moved to Florida to work on DECA because of this type of garbage - they felt inferior to those who lived in the ashram. Also broke up a lot of relationships - and provided a convenient way to break up relationships for those who were afraid of commitment to a REAL person. I still get angry when I read this BS - and it's been a long time. Amazing that the people who bought all of this are still the backbone of Elan Vital. (And they say EX-premies are stuck in the seventies!)

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 07:04:20 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Joe Subject: Yukko Message:

Yo Joe! Don't think I could bear to hear those tapes! I got married in December 1976, Lordy help me! We had just left the IHQ ashram earlier that year, which was seemingly what MJ wanted. My bridesmaid was pregnant by the community coordinator, who had just been to this conference I believe, and as I was getting dressed for the wedding, she told me all about what MJ had said, trying to 'save me at the last minute.' Fortunately, we went through with it, but I felt cursed. The beginning of the end, for me - how schizoid can you get? I was in IHQ while all the stuff was happening, and my then-future hubby and I were encouraged by the higher-ups to leave the ashram - they wanted less liability. I sat in those 'mindy' conferences and heard MJ speak at them. They certainly seemed to be endorsed by him at the time. I remember around then was when I started to notice that he was not a nice person, but this drip took many years to get me wet. For me, this turn-around was a perfect 'double-binding' formula that put my life in a spin for years. Love Disculta

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 18:55:27 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Double Yukko Message:

Dec76 was when I had the supreme (mis)fortune to enter aspirant-land. Spent the next f...king 17 months listening to this ( of course,always being in my mind as didn't have K, and therefore worse than dead). Met husband to be who got K in 1971 when you could just trip in and kiss feet of nice flower strewn indian boy and get K the next day.Whilst 'courting' aforesaid mentioned husband, I spent many a long ( and oh so productive) hour wondering if it was my mind that was in love with him (schizoid's the word). Ann Johnson (bless her heart) told him he was 'still a bit of a hippy - ie concerned with saving the planet etc - and was therefore 'in his mind'. I was obviously doomed if I married him in that state. She told him to ask me to marry him and do it as a way of totally committing himself to M **&^%$ (soory -unexpressible explitives here at memory of this) Then we were forbidden to have sex as we were not yet married so we slept in separate bedrooms of premie-house. This had disasterous effect on our (hitherto) extremely good sex-life. *&&^%%^All was not lost however, as A. Johnson deemed me 'very devoted' cos I spent a fun afternoon ironing all the ashram premie's shirts. (whilst another aspirant was getting a total bollocking for not cleaning the ashram bath with enough devotion.)

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 04:25:09 (GMT) From: Sean Email: seang2@earthlink.net To: moldy warp Subject: Double Yukko Message:

Jesus Moldy, It still makes me sick at my stomach to read or hear these stories of what people were put through. And this was all from people who were just 'filled to the brim' with love and were going to save the world. I was one of those 'lucky' ones who showed up, kissed those feet and got K. The torment started after that. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Such waste, so much bullshit.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 01:25:29 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: moldy warp, I feel for you Message:

I can't imagine being an aspirant at that time. I also related very much to the rest of your story - not in exact detail, but in general content. I was surprised at how angry I got when reading Joe's post and remembering all the crap that was heaped on us re the ashrams and about relationships. AAAGH!

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 07:19:59 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Disculta Subject: MICHAEL DETTMERS--CARE TO COMMENT HERE? Message:

i believe you would have some relevant commentary about this.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 00:03:05 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: janet Subject: MICHAEL DETTMERS--CARE TO COMMENT HERE? Message:

janet, This conference took place in December 1976, less than a month after Maharaji abruptly put an end to the changes that had been launched earlier that year. At the moment, I can't think of anything new to add beyond the two-part post I wrote a while back about the circumstances that precipitated his reinstatement of the ashrams and his renewed emphasis of the importance of devotion to him in order to realize knowledge. Like some others, I look forward to reading the actual transcript of the meeting. By the way, Joe, did Maharaji mention anywhere in the meeting that he was reinstating the ashrams because he was persuaded that its former occupants had not yet kicked their drug habits. Just curious, given Élan Vital's claim that that was the purpose they served. Michael

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Date: Sat, Feb 24, 2001 at 13:19:03 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: janet Subject: From what I hear... Message:

...he was in a religious cult at the time, attending nightly brainwashing sessions, planning the fine details of establishing the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. You see the Lord had incarnated as this young boy and... ...ah well, that's another story. Anth on his way to Carnival.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 07:41:33 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

I finished listening to the tape of the coordinators meeting Maharaji held on December 20, 1976 in Atlantic City, NJ. This meeting followed a program Maharaji gave on the weekend of December 18, 1976. I remember going to that program from Chicago, where I was living at the time. At this program, Maharaji wore his Krisha crown and outfit again, and we all lined up and kissed his feet, which hadn't happened for awhile. Listening to this tape was odd. On the one hand, it caused a big knot in my stomach from all the fear Maharaji was exuding. On the other hand, I have to say, despite the god-awful, distasteful and destructive things Maharaji was saying, I found his banter quite charming. Of course, this was when Maharaji was about 19 or so, and still kinda cute. But cute with the tongue of the devil, because he really fucked the the minds of those people, and all the rest of us. As I said below, a many ashram premies moved out of the ashrams in 1976, many encouraged by the leadership of Divine Light Mission that that was what Maharaji wanted. A lot of the ashrams closed, but most major cities in the US and Canada still had ashrams at the time of this program. In the meeting, people asked a number of questions about the ashrams and what Maharaji planned to do with them. Here are some things that were said: Maharaji said a number of times in this meeting that ashrams were a 'lifelong' committment and that people who moved into them had to have that expectation. [This goes to the lie that Elan Vital is now saying on its website that the ashrams were intended to be for a short period of time. It also makes it all the more outrageous that Maharaji dumped the ashram premies, who had abandoned education, relationships and careers to be there, onto the streets, and closed the ashrams in 1983 without any explanation why and without explaining that he must have been lying or just plain wrong when he spoke about the life-long committment.] This tape also exposes other lies on the Elan Vital website that the ashrams were 'shelters' to protect premies from drugs. Here is what Maharaji said about the ashrams at this meeting. The ashram is for prople who have dedicated their lives for their lifetime. When you understand that the purpose of your life is to understand knowledge and to devote your life to Maharaji, then ashram makes sense and is really required. Ashram is intensive care provided by Guru Maharaj Ji. Guru Maharaj Ji knows how to operate on us and he is the surgeon. See, you have a disease, and you have been given medicine for the disease, and that's good, which is knowledge. But we need intensive care to recover from the disease because we can fall back into the disease. And the ashram is Guru Maharaj Ji's hospital. Ashram is the place we all need to come from but some people can't be there because they are married. Later in the meeting, Maharaji reiterates that the ashram is always for a lifetime. In fact, Maharaji says you have to be there a long time for ashram to have the effect on you it is supposed to have. He said it was like you were in an accident and hit glass that wasn't safety glass, and many splinters of glass have to be pulled out of you slowly and painfully. [I guess this is in line with recovering from disease. God, what a mindfuck Maharaji performed on us!!] Some coordinator from Canada said that he was in the ashram program but discovered that he needed a wife and if there were a married couples ashram there would be no confusion for him, but asked Maharaji about that. Maharaji said that there wouldn't be married ashrams, just 'retreats' that would be run by the ashram coordinator that married couples could come to on their vacations and life the ashram lifestyle [sounds like a fantastic vacation, surely better than Club Med, but I don't think this ever happened.] Then Maharaji said: Do you need a wife, or does something else need a wife? [Then Maharaji went into this long thing about something he saw on TV about (probably) Christine Jorgenson who had a sex change operation. He said that if this guy got such an operation, he wouldn't want a wife, he'd want a husband.] HUH? Then, he said: A wife is not a human necessity. It is desire. It is just an extension of mind. Right now your mind is saying you want a wife, but if it's just a wife, why do you want the second thing, you say I want a child, and I want this and I want that. Somehow mind traps you at the weakest spot. That's the way mind taps into you. Do you want a wife, but this is really just an extension of mind. Then another person asks about people who had moved out of the ashram and got married, and asks Maharaji what they should do. Here is what Maharaji says: This is what you should tell them. If you take a stick of dynamite, and stick it down your throat, and light the other end with the fuse, what's gonna happen? (laughing) Who would you blame that on? The point is, who's gotta pay for that? Look, they are married and it's ridiculous for them to get divorced. ...It was an irrational and wrong move to get married. It isn't the answer, knowledge is the answer. [Maharaji proceeds to talk about marriages that 'aren't working' and how they are worse than hell.] He continues: Whatever you sow, you reap it yourself and if it isn't working out, you are gonna reap that too....Service to Guru Maharaj Ji is personal self-dedication. [Getting married] was a flip-flop move and it's a sad sight, why did they do that? Why, because it's an extension of mind. There is more to come. There is a big section on how fucked up 'Denver' was, what a big slime-pit 'workshops' that premies had gotten involved with are, and how they are/were just MIND, and just wait, till you hear what he had to say about smoking dope, and also eating meat and eggs, and, get this, drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes. And he really bad-mouthed Chicago, once again. Regarding Chicago, he said, speaking to Sharon Stokke, who I think was coordinator in Chicago at the time: Chicago. Chicago, some place. Really. I don't know how people live in Chicago. Lotta maya, maya, maya there. I have been told that in Maharaj's truncated mind, he still, in 1976, associated Chicago with Al Capone and gangsters from all the television he had watched. Not sure, though, but I had heard him say things like this on other occasions. Oh, and at the end of the coordinators meeting, they all lined up, again, and one-by-one, kissed Maharaji's feet. Yuck, gag, barf! Anyhow, more to come. Comments, please.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 23:29:44 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Guru Maharaj Ji Is Quite The Surgeon Message:

Guru Maharaj Ji knows how to operate on us and he is the surgeon. Quack quack. Steve The Duck

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 13:46:03 (GMT) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: All Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

This is a very poignant thread. I have picked up my metaphorical pen several times to post, but found it too painful. I left the ashram twice to get married, and went through hell - even now words fail me ! When M came to England in 71, I don't remember any cult. Of course, there was him as the guru, Lord, etc, but the premies as a group were really loving and kind to each other. I used to drive M in a 15-seater van, and when we set off, anyone who was around was able to pile in - no security, no pecking order as to who was allowed and who wasn't. When he was back in England in late 71, I remember the cult beginning. The pecking order started, but was no problem to me, as I was in the inner circle as M's driver, close servant, confidante, and generally the lad of the moment. In Boulder in 72 I became good friends with Bob Mishler, and we spent quite a bit of time talking deep and intimate thoughts to each other. When M came to England in early 72, Bihari Singh was ill and in hospital, and I was really in - the possible successor to the great Bihari, the front-runner in the closest-premie-to-M stakes. Later in 72 I got married - the first of the ashram coordinator-ashram housemother matches I think in England. And suddenly it was like a ton of bricks were thrown at me. Premies who a month or two before were trying to touch my feet (I am a bit embarrassed about that, but it is a fact), suddenly treated me like a leper. I was shunned beyond anything imaginable. People who I regarded as close friends, loving servants of the Lord like I was, treated me with hate and revulsion, or even worse, with cold indifference. When Bob Mishler came to England, he looked right through me as if I didn't exist. The rest of the 70's was like a nightmare - in this surreal, Kafka-like world I was like an outcast trying desperately to get back to the love, light and safety of the inner circle, that I had so foolishly disarded. Even now, 25 years later, this thread has stirred up a whole lot of memories that I can't even begin to put on paper (metaphorically). I left the ashram for my second marriage at the end of the 70's, and went through many of the same kind of experiences, but with a difference. This time I realised that many of the ashram internees were fooling around and not taking it seriously. However, the struggle to get to the inner circle was taken VERY seriously, it was only that the ashram was no longer the only path to the inner circle. And so it proved, because of determination, desperation, and longing in all its forms, in the late 80s and early 90s I got back into the inner circle. But that is another story, as they say. Like several people have said in this thread, one lesson I have clearly learnt - never again will I allow myself to be treated like this. Of course, you can point the finger all over the place, but I allowed it to happen - that is my lesson. Back in 69, I was in a monastery doing Buddhist Vipassana meditation, when one of the original 5 Western premies came to see me and told me about M and K, and off I went. Now in 2001 I am back doing this same meditation. Quite a 32-year break ! -- Mike

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Date: Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 01:47:16 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Mike Finch-thanks,and about that 'other story'.. Message:

Mike- Thanks so much for your post about your past involvement with m. I got involved in 1971-2, and now, after leaving in the last year, find myself also doing some of the things I did before m's 30 year 'intervention'. I was wondering if you would be willing to share with us the 'other story' that you mentioned, when you got back into the inner circle in the late 8's and early 90's... Thanks for posting, La-ex

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 01:26:05 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: math and meditation Message:

>Back in 69, I was in a monastery doing Buddhist Vipassana meditation, when one of the original 5 Western premies came to see me and told me about M and K, and off I went. Now in 2001 I am back doing this same meditation. Quite a 32-year break ! You mentioned the ashram and M stuff of course as a major part of your 32 year break. Did any of your studies in advanced math give you any insights or impressions that relate to the whole notion of meditation and existence of the individual? Is a person ideas, thoughts and molecular structure or something else? How much can logical analysis tell us about who we are? Your take on these questions may be even more valuable than how your personal life transpired in the context of the ashram and M environment. CD

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 03:39:06 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: CD Subject: math and meditation Message:

How much can logical analysis tell us about who we are?Your take on these questions may be even more valuable than how your personal life transpired in the context of the ashram and M environment. CD Your post sticks out like a sore thumb in that you are alone in your abjectly feeble, failed attempt to get Mike to change the subject! I'm afraid that your post sounds to me like a thinly disguised mean and nasty put down CD. You sound very much like you are trying to belittle or discourage Mike from telling his story . Now, how's about giving him some support to speak frankly of his personal life with M instead of brown-nosing him to change the subject? No wonder people lose their patience with you ! My guess is that you read here because there is plenty of truth to attract you - never mind this 'logical analysis' red-herring! What right do you have to suggest that Mike's personal story is less valuable than his ideas about life? Jesus, you are so transparent sometimes. Flatter him about his great intellect and he might shut up about the Maharaji stuff, right?? Aghh! I could scream!

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 04:10:43 (GMT) From: suprised Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: suprised Message:

>Your post sticks out like a sore thumb in that you are alone in your abjectly feeble, failed attempt to get Mike to change the subject! I'm afraid that your post sounds to me like a thinly disguised mean and nasty put down CD. I am suprised! I meant what I said. Mike did some advanced studies for a very particular reason and I am interested in his feedback from what he learned. Apparently the people on this site are obsessed. He can certainly continue the original subject AND possibly offer some insights on this other tack I have brought up. Its up to him. CD

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 10:47:50 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: suprised Subject: Look Chris , I'm sorry but... Message:

Chris, I apologise if I over-reacted ( it was 3.00 am and I was tired) but you said to Mike Finch: Your take on these questions may be even more valuable than how your personal life transpired in the context of the ashram and M environment. That certainly sounds like you consider his chosen topic LESS important. I just want to know why you think that. Sure he can .. 'continue the original subject AND possibly offer some insights on this other tack' that you have brought up. But, I repeat my question to you only put a different way... Really why do you suppose that that Mike's ideas about life are more valuable than his personal story as he feels he wishes to tell it now?

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:42:51 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: suprised Subject: Why're u suprised, CD, that no-one talks to you? Message:

At least not in a relaxed and easygoing way. You put people on the defensive because of your obvious hidden agenda. You come off sounding evasive, elliptical and smarmy. Come right out and say that you are hoping to put doubt into some poor wavering exes head, CD, with you little tidbits of metaphysics and references to the supernatural and your ''teacher.'' I recognise it all - the premie being kind enough to try to save the exes from perdition. I have been all for giving you the benefit of the doubt and have considered that it may be that you are looking for the sort of intellectual stimulation and sincere discussion that you cannot find with premies because of their self-imposed philosophical limitations and general indifference to anyone else except Rev Rawat. But I have come to the conclusion that you simply feel self-righteous and smug in your Knowledge that YOU HAVE A MASTER and therefore are more realized and humble than us poor manmuts who wander in our minds and you love to drop hints at that. No one wants to talk to you until you come clean and say what it is that you want from posting here. No one even congratulated you on your self-announced ''good karma'' for getting two guitars cheaply. No one really cares about you because ultimately you don't really care enough about yourself or us to just be honest and sincere, simple and straightforward.

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 15:59:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: A history lesson about Chris Dickey Message:

Once upon a time, a long time ago, in a forum just like this, I got very, very frustrated trying to talk with CD. Indeed, I wasn't the only one. EVERYONE felt the same: the guy was impossible. Now at that time, Katie was the only one who had expressed any fondness for the guy and he, being at least partially human, at times acknowledges the warmth. As Katie put it, they were friends. (As I, too, am partially human, I, too, was able to be friends with her.) As CD's friend, Katie was not willing to accept what others of us thought we saw, that being one asshole motherfucker, enjoying winding us up again and again and again. Instead, she suggested, maybe he was just brain-damaged. So, at my bidding, because she was the one person who had any chance at all of getting through to him, Katie tried. She asked him, in private, the one question I was just dying to have answered: did he know frustrating it was for the rest of us to try to talk with him? Unfortunately, believe it or not, Chris didn't answer her question. Instead, he just snarled at her, told her to mind her own business and that was it. So, really, everyone, if you think that you can ever crack this nut, forget it. What I suggest you do, instead, is continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. Coat that irritating grain of sand with enough love and soon enough you've got a pearl. What's the matter? Don't got enough love? Sheesh!

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 04:19:04 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: suprised Subject: suprised Message:

Are you aware of the fact that you frustrate the hell out of people here? If so, why do you think that is? In particular, people talk about the style and contents of your posts. They call them evasive, elliptical or, as I did recently, blatant lies. Why do you think people criticize your posts like that? Is it just because we're 'obsessed'? Is that it? Is that what you honestly believe? These are fair questions, Chris. Would you please answer them? I mean, what's the use trying to start some sort of esoteric dialogue about higher math when everyone who's ever tried to talk with you here complains about how hard that is?

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 09:31:31 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not surprised: coldhearted and insensitive Message:

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed by Patrick, Pat and Jim re: CD's posts. He's disingenuous. CD, Mike just poured his heart out about something near and dear to his him. This is a post that took a bit of time and painful reflection to write. And your comment is that you want to know about MATH. You don't understand any of the emotional subtext of what was said. You did not HEAR Mike. You only heard yourself. That is one of the most offensive characteristics that premies develop, and you've got it in spades. Yes, I've become very short tempered with you, because you deserve it. Come around to your senses, lad. We are EX premies. The only reason you're allowed to post here is because of the entertainment value you provide -- because you demonstrate so plainly what is wrong with the cult and with M's followers. This post is a perfect example of it. I am being harsh with you because Mike is struggling to come to terms with having been involved with the cult for longer than most everyone here, and is on his way out, a emotionally draining and difficult process. Your post was an insult to his emotional struggle precisely because you ignored the depth of what he was trying to express. You cannot acknowledge that process or what it represents because you are a die hard apologist for Captain Rawat -- a man who is responsible for having harmed the lives of many who post here. Your insipid posts are just as offensive as Bjorn's as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, that's exactly the way I feel. Marianne

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:56:53 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Great post Mike, but one small thing... Message:

Mike wrote:- When M came to England in 71, I don't remember any cult. Of course, there was him as the guru, Lord, etc, but the premies as a group were really loving and kind to each other. I know what you mean about it not being a cult at the time, but all the seeds were there, including the one essential ingredient, the worship of another human being as superior (or in this case Lord!). Sure, the bureaucracy wasn't yet there, but the feeling that you had something special, different to other people, was there, as was the desire to get other recruits. The fact that everyone felt love, excitement, freshness, and innocence, does not mean it wasn't a cult. So sorry, Mike, even that small handful of people was a cult as far as I can see. BTW I remember you and Maggie (?) coming to a Saturday 'open day' at Brighton ashram in 1974. I had only had knowledge a few months and Maggie said she hadn't meditated for months. I couldn't believe she said that, and in fact didn't believe she meant it! I rationalised it as she meant something else - I can't even remember what:-) John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:16:56 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Mike, thank you for sharing your story Message:

I know FV is not the best place in the world to post personal stuff but every now and then a post will touch someone else and help them to break free of past pains and understand some mystery or untie soem knot. There are many more readers than posters if you look at the hit figures and everynow and then a new poster will appear who says so-and-so's post rang a bell. Your story will probably mean a lot to those who were right at the top. I hope you are well and happy.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 14:33:45 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Mike, really glad you posted this, thankyou (nt) Message:

ssmmiillee

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:15:16 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Joe Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

Joe: The only possible excuse is that the guy was just too stupid or corrupt to know any better. And since he denies it happened at all he'd either have to be REAL stupid (as in candidate for the Special Olympics) or he's just plain old corrupt. And not too corrupt to know better either, because in that case he wouldn't have changed his story. Then, he said: A wife is not a human necessity. It is desire. It is just an extension of mind. Tell that to the Shakers. On the other hand, they kept their 'Ashrams' open until the last one died, and managed to produce a lot of great craft work. But two generations is about all you get out of that deal. How old did you say he was? Five? --Scott

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:50:00 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: In-f*cking-credible, Joe Message:

I'm speechless for once.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:06:49 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Joe Subject: I moved INTO the ashram 12/77... Message:

...and out of the ashram and out of the sphere of MahaFake's influence in autumn of 1978. And I never heard that shit. Although if I did, I'm sure I would have framed it as Wisdom from on High. Although I was an 'ashram premie,' I was pretty much totally out of the loop. Satsang, service, meditation and substitute teaching. That was about it. In the few months before I left, I was house father in a Denver ashram that had a few premies that must have been old IHQ dregs, I guess, but at least they had the juice to get me into 'darshan service' for what was to be my last festival as a devotee. When you're in a cult, and on the fringes, as 99% of us were,you have to stay in by manufacturing whatever beliefs are necessary to keep you believing. Once you get out, you say 'how could I have been so dense,' but...hey, we're human. Humans believe things. Another subject, I know. Anyway, MahaFake was (is) pretty dense his own self, and abusive too. At least we tried to be nice to one another. We were at least a little smart.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:23:10 (GMT) From: SB MAD Email: None To: Joe Subject: How sickening!! Message:

Ashram is intensive care provided by Guru Maharaj Ji. Guru Maharaj Ji knows how to operate on us and he is the surgeon. See, you have a disease, and you have been given medicine for the disease, and that's good, which is knowledge. But we need intensive care to recover from the disease because we can fall back into the disease. And the ashram is Guru Maharaj Ji's hospital. Ashram is the place we all need to come from but some people can't be there because they are married. This is the kind of stuff that got carved into my young mind and made me stay, his reassurance that he knew how fucked up we were and that he was going to help us made us stay in the cult as long as some of us did, 25 yrs for me...how sick the bastard can be? A person listening to this type of remarks ends up feeling in some point that something is wrong with him/her even if it isn't true. He lied to the premies, he still does. I believe Lard contributed to the idea that I shouldn't trust myself, my mind, and that created an unnecesary inner conflict. Lots of confusion could have been avoided and for that, I HATE THE RAT! I feel better now saying it again. Lard's cult is generated on fear of the unknown. His is a cult that do not empower people but makes them feel week and small. Why would I want to be a premie? Yuck!

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:46:08 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: SB MAD Subject: How sickening!! yes yes yes!!! Message:

I get more genuine love and acceptance from the people (or rather the exes) on this site than I EVER got from M and his nihilistic world.How utterly foul and vile are those words of the living Lord. And to think I truley believed he was Jesus come again. How dare he have fucked with my head like that. How mind-bogglingly arrogant. It beggers belief. Christ! (I could go on in this vein for some considerable time!!!)

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:18:13 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Joe et al Subject: one of the best posts and threads ever Message:

this is such powerful evidence of Rawat's hypocrisy. I like Michael's idea of making it a permanent ex premie org fixture. The personal responses of so many too, are some of the most powerful I have ever read. Disculta's post especially got to me, and so did many others. It is good we have eachother, because I don't think anyone who wasn't there and who didn't take this LOTU trip to heart could understand how powerfully shaming a tirade like this was to a 'devotee'. What gaul, of Rawat and his current PWK's, to deny that it ever happened. Of course. Shameless denial which adds to the pain is what they are best at.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:22:15 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Joe Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

Joe, Thanks for taking the time to post this stuff. Picking up on a point made below by Patrick (formerly Anon), can someone create a three-part FAQ section with the following content, for example: Topic #1 - The Ashrams a) What Maharaji said about the ashrams in Atlantic City, December, 1976: .... b) What Élan Vital now says the purpose of the ashrams were: ... c) Quote showing how Maharaji avoids responsibility by suggesting that all the concepts about the ashrams, were cause by confused mahatmas and instructors, not him. Topic # 2 - Drugs and Alcohol a) What Maharaji said about the use of drugs and alcohol in Atlantic City, December, 1976: ... b) What Élan Vital now says about Maharaji's contribution to society through his efforts to eliminate the use of drugs among his followers: ... c) Quotes by me and others who were around Maharaji at the time about his drug use and alcoholism. Topic # 3 - Etc., Etc. Michael

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 23:43:40 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Well, Michael.... Message:

I nominate you as the perfect person to write that. I think your idea is great, and could be expanded to include any number of issues/subjects. I'm going to make copies of the tape, and I'd be happy to send you one. Also, a couple of people have offered to help transcribe it, and that might be the easiest to work with. By the way, on the tape, Joe Nader (I always liked Joe), said that on the previous Sunday 'Michael' called and said Maharaji would do the program in Atlantic City. Was that you?

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 13:35:36 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Joe Subject: Well, Joe.... Message:

First, it could very well be me who called Joe Natter although I don't remember doing so. Second, I could write the piece I suggested but I would be hard pressed to get to it anytime soon. I haven't even started on the paper I promised last week. Lucky for me, Jean-Michel came to the rescue and offered to do it. I am willing to work with J-M and help out anyway I can. Michael

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 10:58:40 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I'd be glad to put it online Message:

when the editing will be done .... We could also do the same sort of page for some of the outrageous denials EV is doing on his websites.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 12:09:37 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Jean-Michel Subject: Thanks, JM (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:27:33 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: I second Michael's idea for EPO(good work Joe)nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 15:53:58 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Joe Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

This stuff about marriage that he said is news to me. Didn't he actually perform and officiate at some marriage ceremonies for some premies who were close to him? Why would he willingly participate in a function that he says was generated by mind and would fuck up some of his closest premies if that's what he believed? I remember his riffs about meeting a beautiful woman and wanting to marry 'it' (audience laughs...?), and then he goes on to relate how the beautiful woman looks in the morning with green mask on her face, so where is the beauty then? Under the green stuff and in her heart, Mr. Rawat, that's where! Then he said once that marriage is a 'tall order', as if to say that it's a worthy thing to do, but it's hard and takes alot of work. And if marriage is really just a desire of the mind, then how else are premie kids supposed to come into manifestation and carry on? Is he the only one in the group fit to procreate or something? At a series of ashram-candidate meetings in the late 70's and early 80's in Miami, I distinctly remember going to two separate meetings where the exact opposite things were said. At one meeting, it was said (by Charananand) that the ashram life is a veil of tears, and to be a householder with Knowledge was the best and most rewarding way to go....then I heard the exact opposite said about married life at an ashram meeting, and that ashram life was the best way to go. Step right up, ladies and gentlemen, we have something for everybody, right this way... What I can't believe (but must because it's true) is that I sat there and let all these contradictions go down right in front of me without saying a fucking word. They had a grip on my head from all the satsang about not doubting the superior power, that his satsang was not just the words so don't let little things like words bother you, etc etc etc. And there was this one whitebread ivy league, button down, smarmy faced little shit who was a new instructor who sat there and spewed shit like we'd come back as worms and get eaten by ants if we revealed blah blah blah. I wonder where he is now, but not really. Marriage is a very hard thing to do right in this present state of the world. Of the 50% of marriages that stay together, about 40% of them are merely arrangements based on money, convenience, kids, or some other circumstance. Only about 5% of all marriages are the 'happily ever after' variety. I still believe that in its purest state, marriage is a sacrament and God's way of keeping human families going on the planet and love cultivated in the human race. Sandy

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:35:04 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Fast forward to late '90's Message:

I really liked your post Sandy, especially pointing out the contradictions. Reading this thread and thinking about marriage, relationships and friends I remembered: A few years ago I was at a very select get together with him, of course by invitation only. The invitation was by way of a very personal phone call. I have had quite a few of these invitations and they are always the same. You are told that maharaji has invited YOU to this thing. It is only for you, between you and your master, not anybody else, don't tell anyone else about it and you are given the place, time and checklist of do's and don'ts. Your response is a I'm so lucky, so SPECIAL hushed thankyou. Your busting to tell someone! If you happen to be living with another premie, and they are standing near you when you get that phone call, when you hang up, they naturally ask you what's up as they can't help notice your enthusiasm you go very serious and with a secret, sly half smile say oh nothing. It's even more bizarre if after you hang up, the phone rings again and it is for them, and the whole trip goes into motion once more. Sometimes you still don't say anything to each other! In this climate of supreme elitism, husbands don't tell wives, wives don't tell husbands. They go to bed side by side, perhaps share all kinds of intimacies, but not that. The one invited will be smiling mysteriously and feeling supremely sorry for their other half, the one not invited will know something's going on and feel hurt and left out, but can't quite put their finger on it. Sometimes they don't find out until it's all over. If they both are invited, when they discover this fact, they will think theirs' is truly a match made in heaven, they must be really in sync. Parents don't tell children and vice versa. Friends don't tell other friends. But somehow word leaks out, the result is SOME ARE FEELING REALLY GOOD, OTHERS REALLY BAD. It's so funny, because maharaji doesn't make those invitation lists up, like you are told. Apart from a few familiars, he probably doesn't even know or care who is there. When you get there, you see your spouse, child or friend there, and smile at each other knowingly .....gee we are so lucky! I wanted to tell you but.......! There is much crying and gnashing of teeth for those who know about it through the leak, who were not invited. They are wondering what they have done wrong. Believe me it can get quite fierce. At the one I was thinking of, I was not sitting with everyone else. I was doing something for him, serving him. Through the whole thing, I was standing behind him, and could see the faces of everyone (when I could tear my eyes away from him) staring adoringly at him and trying to get his attention, a very common past time in this type of situation (look at me, look at me, please look at me). He expressed his displeasure about something that someone who was there did, plus started making fun of them. This person was sitting beside his wife. All the premies (PWKs) then joined in at making fun of him. With much glee on their faces they started shouting the rudest, meanest, horrible things to him, even his wife. Each time someone said something, they would immediately look at maharaji, hoping to get a response from him. The victim kept looking at m, saying outrageous things himself, as he was wont to do, that would also get m's attention. I was glad I was not part of the pack, I probably would have liked (but not daring) to say something to get his attention if I was. Sigh. After this I remember having this niggly thought, so this is what it has become, this grabbing, hurtful thing at anyone's expense so I will get some recognition, a glance, a stern look, please God something, from m. The purpose of k seemed to be to get on a list. It is surely a four letter word. Reminds me in some respects of that movie 'Almost Famous' C

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 03:38:20 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Connie Subject: Fast forward to late '90's Message:

What a chilling story, Connie. The church-ladies of the new non-cult church of Elan Vital gave me the full time creeps with their conspiracies, secret meetings and the dog eat dog world of the grace race. That's why I left two months ago. I feel sorry that I criticized them mercilessly for a whole year before I left but it was hard to make myself believe that the rot started at the top and they were mostly sheep being led by an irresponsible, immoral and incompetent shepherd.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:58:21 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Yes Pat, it is chilling Message:

but I don't think there is much difference between those chilling tales of the '70's and now, except that everyone is a lot older and 'wiser'. The absolute loss of humanity I abhor had its beginnings and was operating back then, as was the hypocrisy. That is what I wanted to illustrate. By looking at myself, I keep seeing, and I know sounding like a broken record, the UNDERLYING ATTITUDE has always been exactly the same regardless of what any so called Elan Vitalees say today. It keeps hitting me again and again. I know that attitude is not confined to just me from talking to people. And as I have said before, you just have to look at the actions of the people, that says heaps. What I find so sad is that nothing disturbing is seen about that type of behaviour, it is normal. It is apparent to me also from the premies who post here. I recognize it because I was such a part of it, though funny, as I never felt exactly in, always knowing and sometimes experiencing it could change in an instant to being out. That is why I think it so fierce. Nobody feels secure or safe, all relationships are conditional to a certain extent, and everyone's main goal is to make sure they stay in at any cost. I am struggling with my own part in it, beginning to see that I was not just a victim, but also played perpetrator at times, it does not sit easy with me. So true what Babs said in her journey, 'for all those who I hurt, I am sorry, for all those who hurt me, I forgive you', though that last part is a bit hard for me, especially regarding Maharaji. I am shying away from even thinking about him. I know he is totally responsible, and has a lot to answer for, that is all I can say about how I feel about him at the moment. I have already experienced one volcano bursting inside me, very bumpy eruption, and I fear the volcano that is maharaji, when it blows is going to be a big one. I was going to keep this short..... Thanks for your responses. C

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 09:37:31 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Connie Subject: Connie, I've been trying to get your attention Message:

and I'm so glad that you finally responded to me. Two things leapt out of your post: You said: ''Nobody feels secure or safe, all relationships are conditional to a certain extent, and everyone's main goal is to make sure they stay in at any cost.'' And none of them seem to think that that is in some way so antithetical to ordinary human life and love and warmth. The coldness and self-centeredness is so... well, chilling and creepy. You also said: ''So true what Babs said in her journey, 'for all those who I hurt, I am sorry, for all those who hurt me, I forgive you', though that last part is a bit hard for me, especially regarding Maharaji.'' I too did my fair share of things for which I am ashamed and I am forgiving myself for that. I have already forgiven those who trespassed against me including Rev Rawat. It helped me a lot to just let my anger at him out and say terrible things about him and get it if my chest and then see that he too is mortal and fallible. As he once said; ''Even the rich have tears.''

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 14:43:52 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: thanks Pat, I'm feeling my way shyly (nt) Message:

blush

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 20:18:33 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: Connie Subject: Connie, don't be too shy Message:

to email if you ever want to. It helped me to get to know the people behind the names. It also helps that there happen to be five of us regulars here who all knew each other 20 years ago here in San Francisco - Joe, Joy, Francesca, Charles and me. There are also three non-posting exes that we know and a bunch of other exes in the Bay Area whom we are just getting to know. SF has always been a hotbed of nonconformism and anti-authoritarianism. I wish you well in your journey to intellectual independence.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:54:49 (GMT) From: Sean Email: seang2@earthlink.net To: Sandy Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

The lies and destructive crap we swallowed because we were so convinced of our own lack of worth astounds me now. When I left Denver in'76 I went into a different kind of Hell where I had to confront my own burgeoning insanity and uselessness that had been ever so carefully and lovingly nursed by the googoo from hell. It took flirting with true madness, as well as getting chunks of flesh cut off of me at a Sundance, just to start me back on the road to feeling again. God! What a waste! It pisses me off so much I'd like to drag him out in the woods and whack him (don't worry, just expressing my anger).

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 15:25:05 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Joe Subject: Amazing that he could say that about marriage Message:

When he himself got married in 1974. Maybe the bloom was off the rose or something. (Or else he was really in his mind when he got married.) Amazing that he could say this about the ashrams, when he closed them seven years later. BTW, I remember this heavy insistence on moving into the ashram. It really messed up some friends of mine. I left the cult shortly after this meeting, and I didn't realize that M had closed the ashrams until I found Forum I. This, along with the revelations about M's drinking, was probably the thing that freaked me out the most upon finding the ex-premie site, because many of the people I knew who were pressured to move into the ashram DID see it as a lifetime commitment. The stuff about Chicago is just plain weird - especially since he was about to relocate to Miami.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:51:56 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie To: Katie, Joe and all Subject: Supreme Dissonance Message:

I read Joe's post early this morning when I got up. I've read it about 3 more times since. I started to write posts in response but I got angry and upset. It amazes me that this information has the affects me so deeply, at this late date. Katie, my immediate reaction was the exact same as yours. Yeah, Captain Rawat, were you in your mind when you got married? Are you now? That thought had to have run through the minds of many premies as they sat and listened to him talk. But no one had the courage (I wouldn't have been able to do it either) to stand up and ask him about it. Asking such a question would've reduced one's standing in their community to ashes. How could one dare utter such a thought --- totally in your mind sister! Secondly, the analogy to sticking a pipe bomb in one's mouth was shocking. What he was saying is that if we got married, or followed our own heart's desire about our future, and did not stay in or go to the ashram, we were committing suicide! That's it, plain and simple. Thirdly, as we have been insisting here, Captain Rawat's own words now expose that the ashrams were for lifetime devotion (read cash cows) to him. Life in the ashram was so we could be focused on him, period. I cannot imagine lining up to kiss the guy's feet after he squelched everyone's souls so much. This tape is a very, very important part of the organizational history. It demonstrates falsehoods contained in the EV FAQ's -- information EV is giving the public which it intends that people rely upon in making decisions about the organization. This demonstrates the fraudulent nature of some of the representations on the website. Those words they posted will come back to haunt them, in the very near future I suspect. Last of all, Katie, aren't we lucky we left when we did? I got out just a few months before this event, when I started law school. It was the dissonance between what Captain Rawat was saying and what he was doing that really got me, especially the money grab which had been going on at this same time. Joe, I hope you get this whole thing transcribed so it can be posted in full here. They're cringing down in Malibu reading this stuff. Yeah, read it and weep, Captain Rawat. My investigative journey is going quite well, thank you. Marianne

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 12:27:33 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: Joe Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76 Message:

Outrageous. This is exactly the sort of stuff that current aspirants and premies should be shown that Maharaji said and did. A few choice quotes from that Atlantic City meeting plus some examples of the hypocrisy of it all, and no one will be able to deny that Maharaji should rightly apologise in no uncertain terms for putting on us all like he did. I am personally very offended if Elan Vital are suggesting that the ashrams were not intended to be a lifelong committment - that is a most heinous revisisionist lie if it is so. I certainly was in no doubt about this when I, as a trembling teenager, was being groomed for an ashramic fate by Maharaji and his henchmen instructors or 'initiators 'as they were then called. Notorious instructor David Smith told me in a private interview, as I was being dispatched off to a distant ashram, that I should be prepared to 'NEVER see my parents again' etc. This was Maharaji's line too. The whole trip was totally unkind, inhuman, and to make matters worse -Maharaji having stolen our lives ( or as he would have it -taken us away fom our 'attachments') did nothing to replace the void with anything remotely commesurate or better. I experienced this 'opportunity to surrender my life' and lose the 'attachments of this world' in reality, as a totally traumatising process of having my attachments unceremoniously ripped away and the gradual dimming of hope. He clearly thought that we should, (like his Indian peasant devotees no doubt did) be grateful for any 'shelter' from the world. The trouble is, just as HE DID and DOES - I too fundamentally , LIKED THE WORLD that he would lock me away from forever! So the whole enforced 'giving up the world forever' order was in practice total torture, and contrary to what he promised, was utterly soul destroying . His paln was to put us in this extermination camp, where we would be boiled alive and reduced from complex and interesting, human individuals to blobs of unhappy nothings... like his little slaves, with no future , no will of our own, no say, no nothing. We might as well have been dead. .. and Oh yes I forget -we had The Knowledge -that's all you need in life isn't it ? Well clearly he needs a few other things like... A yacht with helipad - a 41 million dollar jet - properties arould the world -retinues of servants -money for supporting his mistresses, educating his kids, buying them BMW's and Mercs -money for the BEST THIS WORLD CAN OFFER for him and his family and their families etc. - BTW Elan Vital have been sniffing around Miami asking how this info about the yacht was leaked to this site -I have it on good authority that this is a major area that they are keen to keep out of public knowledge. 'Privacy' for Maharaji =excuse to cover embarassing extravagances. Anyway, Maharaji's juvenile attempts to impose DLM's Indian model on us more sophisticated westerners was an unmitigated disaster of huge proportions, and one which should justly still haunt him. It is outrageous in the extreme that he should be permitted to live and continue in his super-rich lifestyle, without paying in some way for the damage he did to us. I am one of those unfortunate youg folks who actually DID give up everything and submit to the Maharaji lifetime programme of self-annihiliation, and I can tell you that it was the most dehumanising, dreadful, unfulling fate imaginable. I wept day and night - I grieved for a better life , although never daring to question Maharaji's 'Agya' (which means literally 'order'' ) Most ashram premies spent their entire time pathetically longing to be somewhere else - this of course meant endlessly pining to be 'closer' to Maharaji. A sad site, especially with the female Gopi premies who blubbed endlessly and tiresomely. If, on rare occasion, the opportunity to 'get close' did come, it often precipitated disillusionment or deeper denial and hypocrisy. We were like members of a sheiks harem all preoccupied and obsessing about the Master to the exclusion of any human exchange or kindness or intelligent interaction with each other; each desperate to be chosen and picked out for a better life. So unreal, so demeaning and abusive of him to put us there. The result of his 'No Doubt' order was to produce a clique of intellectually unstimulated morons consumed with pettiness and the pusuit of Maharaji's grandiose agendas. All this reminds me so much of the Pied Piper story which horrified me as a kid - The idea that innocent young children like me could be lured away from their happy lives and their loved ones, by the hypnotic call of an evil character, who first appeared kindly, and then entombed FOREVER in a dark cave, was deeply scary. That this childhood nightmare should become reality was a trauma that I am still overcoming aged 44. Thank any real God up there, that Maharaji's plans to imprison us LIFELONG were relatively short-lived. I dread to think what sort of mindless, faceless, unhappy clones he might have spawned had he succeeded in the long-term with his irresponsible 'experiment.' The more I am reminded of the injustice and evil that Maharaji wrought upon so many youthful, well-intended people, and the suffering that he caused -the more I am convinced that it is paramount for us -who were there - to broadcast the facts -to tell the story and to shame those who continue to paint this cult as something that has now something worthwhile to offer humanity. In my opinion, even if the meditation were a a worthy thing to promote, the so-called teacher (and to my mind WE who DID IT, apparently unlike Maharaji himself, are better qualified to teach it) ..as I was saying.. even if it was a worthy cause -the teacher has so many skeletons in his cupboard, so many responsiblities to take that have been ignored (he's so rich and powerful now that he believes he can avoid ever dealing with this stuff) , that no way should he be trusted or taken on his word today. Finally... I would like to see short video clips of this meeting in QuickTime format or whatever, on the web site. Certainly a transcript is essential. There should definitely be a section for these sorts of clips that would be irrefutable proof of Maharaji's fear-mongering attempt to totally highjack the lives of his followers. Incidently a good way I have found of putting movies on the web, is to record them onto a digital camcorder like Sony's excellent PC100 that allows analogue VHS input, then play them back digitally, via Firewire, onto my computer - edit the clips in a software video editing program like Apple's 'Final Cut Pro' or 'Adobe Premiere' and save them at a smaller size using a good web-friendly compression codec - like the Sorenson one. Since connection speeds are going to increase over time it would seem quite feasible that many people will be able to easily view these videos online shortly - I have the new, utterly marvelous ADSL connection to the Net which basically means that a 3 megabyte movie takes a few seconds to download - This site loads almost instantaneously - you can bet that a huge number of people will have this kind of connection as it becomes widespread. My brother in law works for British Telecom and he tells me that the labour government in the UK are subsidising this technology enormously so as to get fast access to the Internet into homes and schools asap

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 23:09:22 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: Nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Great / important post, Patrick ** BEST ** Message:

please keep somewhere precious, J-M.

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 08:43:46 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I will, Thanks !! (nt) Message:

mm

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 19:06:35 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Thanks Patrick Message:

I completely concur with your sentiments, and as I have said before, I think the ashram and Maharaji's failure to address it, will be the major thorn in his side for the rest of his life. What he did to us ensures that there are a relatively large groups of people who feel personally victimized by Maharaji. Now, that group is growing, because more of the ex-ashramites are becoming ex-premies, and more are looking at the damage all that actually caused. By the way, the tap is an AUDIO tape only. I'm going to makes copies of it for others to listen to and somehow we need to get it transcribed for the website. Although, if there are capabilities available dor audio access on the site, that would be great, because the fawning prostrations and 'mea culpas' of the premies asking questions is particularly distrubing, and comes through more in the tone than in the actual words. Plus, Maharji is amazingly trite and dismissive. He is kind of laughing about all this.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:18:13 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: More from Maharaji 12/76, thats one helluva post, Message:

Thanks Patrick, my heart bleeds with you, I went there too, I'm out of posting energy at the moment! having lost so much, for some reason. I wrote a long post above about the subtle damage that is done when you think you are a part of the 'best thing this world has to offer' How alienating this is..how it inevitably cuts you off and separates you from your fellow human beings..Because,...no matter how equal you feel, that's what knowledge shows you ..right? Thuguru tells you that you are now saved, different, superior, separate from the rest of humanity, special in some way, So, I have spent the last 30 years of my life, believing , on and off, over the years, that I had the best WAY, so I became lazy and complacent, and disinterested in all the richness and diversity that is all around me..and that is the damage that has been done..and I have been a willing partner in this, which pisses me off, no end....I could go on, but I won't because I might lose it!!! In every sense... Thanks for putting all that into words, Love Kelly

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:42:41 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Thanks for taking the time to get that all out n/t Message:

raw rat rat

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 09:37:58 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Thank you, Joe, for reminding us Message:

and for taking the trouble to listen to all that drivel from a teenage spoilt brat. It reminds me why I did not move into the ahsram. I had that stuff shoved down my throat on the two occassions that I applied to enter the ahsram and it freaked me out and I declined both times at the last minute. I think the big difference between you an dme and why you went in and I stayed out was because I am so much older than you. You were not much older than the urug whereas I was already an old skeptical fag at the time. I am just so sorry you had to go throught that. I feel quite tearful thinking about what you dear sweet innocent soul had to go through. At least I had only had my heartbbroken by stary sailors whereas you had yours smashed into smithereens by a stupid jumped up quasi-holy semi-divine demi-god of a fucking little Kirshna drag queen with the greed of a pieve of trailer trash from the boonies and a mahatma circus to beat the band. Sorry, buddy. I wish I had now said what I thpought of him then but the bjakti juju got me too.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 19:36:14 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: spoilt brat Message:

I talked with a friend (never a premie) who knows a former premie who babysat for Rawat, and that's the way they described him, a spoilt brat.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 17:51:35 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: My Personal Holocaust Message:

I'm furious! Anyone seen the Dark Crystal?You know, that muppet movie about the forces of dark and light. The bad guys (skeksies) have the people imprisoned as slaves and they have a machine to suck out their life energy. The scene where they do that, and the innocent little podlings turn grey reminds me of MJ's ashram machine. Joe, reading these excerpts from that Atlantic City conference has totally activated me, more than anything I have read on the Forum.This was my personal holocaust. After quite joyfully getting into MJ's 'spiritual' path, and even living fairly joyfully in ashrams in Spain and South America, where love between people was permitted,I was transferred to Denver, and life became hell. It was the time of workshops, but these were not joyous workshops. They were very hierarchically run. In fact, my main impression of them in retrospect was seeing all these self-important honchos strutting their rank. Anyway, the slavery of IHQ life got to me very quickly. Also, MJ, who had sent me to South America, and whom i had lovingly served for many years there, never even said hello to me. He knew me - I had been his translator and he had personally aaaaagyaed me to go there. Bur he never once acknowledged me, although he walked past my desk all the time. It was really bizarre. I knew I wasn't supposed to expect anything, and that I should be humble and self-effacing, but I had been living the life of a devotee whose guru loves them. I had been giving satsang to this effect in South America. I was really into it - travelled with a Ramayana and Shrimad Bhagavatam, which were full of stories of the bliss of devotion, which Maharaji himself had talked about. But everything in my body and nervous system was now telling me that HE DIDN'T LOVE ME or care about me in the slightest. This was when I started getting sick. I 'm not saying it was all psychosomatic - it wasn't. I discovered years later that I had had giardia and other parasites from S. Am all along, plus the stress of the workload at IHQ was hell for my back. I was in constant pain, but more than this, I was in constant emotional pain. Goddess is great, and all of a sudden a brother was transferred into my ashram. We looked at each other and spent hours trying to remember where we had met, but had never been in the same place at the same time, this life. It was one of those things, you know. MJ and the honchos closed the ashrams and encouraged us to leave and stop being a liability. We got married right around the time that MJ reversed direction, and said all the crap Joe has quoted above. I remember the stick of dynamite thing. He was basically saying you have blown it, you have made the big mistake, but you should stay together. Where does that leave a person? Purgatory? I was really enjoying the love and affection of my marriage (which lasted for 9 years). Yet I felt a terrible pull to move back in the ashram. My heart, body and entire emotional self told me I wanted to stay married, that I needed the nurturance to survive, actually. And on the other side, Maharaji was saying that I needed to move back in the shram to survive spiritually. I was torn asunder. This created a rift in my psyche that was so intense that my body just gave out under the stress of it. I got one condition which opened the door to others, which set up all sorts of cascading negative cycles in my body. This was 20 years ago, and I am still dealing with the physical effects of this, despite years of therapy and all kinds of straight and alternate medical therapies. And all kinds of integrative stuff to bring my mind, body and spirit back together. But this wound was literally like having been in a concentration camp, for my sensitive system. I am absolutely healing it, but it is really important for me to have the validation that something really, really cruel and shitty happened to me. One of the main problems has been that the shock of Maharaji's turnaround and emergence as a cruel persecutor - when I thought he was my loving Lord - left my psyche kind of scattered and lost in its ability to stay in my body. Reading these words that so hurt me is actually healing for me, because it accesses these unknown places that went into a kind of 'spin.' I'm not into flogging any hate horses, or 'holding onto the past.' Actually, telling the truth about the past is, for me, the best way to really let go of it, not in some self-righteous 'I've forgiven and moved on' bullshit, but in a real way. This stuff is not all at the mental level, and if you let go of it mentally before it has been validated on a cellular level, you can just continue the split that is the core problem. This core split is something that I believe I came into this life to heal. I don't blame it on Maharaji. I don't agree to ever again, should I reincarnate or whatever, learn lessons via experiences of cruelty. I am leaving that paradigm. When I think about Maharaji, I don't have very strong feelings, because it's hard to think of him as a real person. I don't even know if he thinks of himself as a real person. When I think of his asinine and sociopathic behaviors, however, I feel a furious energy that I am using to free myself from any remaining traces of anything that doesn't nurture and love my whole self and body. Joe, your comments that he was a bit 'cute' really hit home - this seductive quality is why I completely stay away, even all these years later. I was imprinted like a newborn gosling. Love Disculta

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Date: Tues, Feb 27, 2001 at 00:24:01 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Don't worry, he ain't cute no more Message:

Joe, your comments that he was a bit 'cute' really hit home - this seductive quality is why I completely stay away, even all these years later. I was imprinted like a newborn gosling. If you watch Maharaji in a video now, he has lost every bit of the 'cuteness' he had when he was younger. First of all, he hasn't aged well at all. His face is all puffy, especially his eyes, probably from all the alcohol he has consumed. His eyes, literally, are just slits. I like Katie described him as an aging, Asian businessman. Actually he looks a lot like Sun Myung Moon. And he no longer has that cute, giggly, teenage voice, either. He just yells, and then speaks softly and that child-like nature is just gone. So, I doubt you would fee seduced by him if you saw him now.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:01:12 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Disculta Subject: To Disculta:My Personal Holocaust Message:

All power to your elbow. I absolutely relate to what you are saying.If you feel the need anytime for more therapy for your body and soul have you tried a properly qualified homeopath? I am going to one at the mo, and it is doing wonders for healing my horrendous psychic split at a cellular level.(a split which has gone much deeper than I used to think).Love and empathic thoughts from moldy warp

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:45:50 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: To Moldy Message:

Yes, I've tried homeopathy - classical and other kinds, many times over the last 20 years. Many things have worked, but homeopathy has been a complete wash, unfortunately. Thanks for the moldy love, though, feels good! Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:09:57 (GMT) From: moldy warp Email: None To: Disculta Subject: To Disculta Message:

thanks for your love. Particularly well timed as I am having a minor freak-out as it appears some people think I am a still a premie. (see my thread below 'Narrow Escape!) Perhaps my sense of humour is too obscure...or maybe they are being tongue in cheek and my sense of humour is lacking. Hard to tell -that's the trouble with forums I guess Love m w

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:11:38 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: moldy warp Subject: To Moldy Message:

I just read your thread below and can see why you're minorly freaked out. Having read your previous posts, I didn't think you were doing a U-turn back to Hell. It just goes to show how communication is so much more than just the words, and consists largely of visual cues (I guess that's where emoticons come in handy--but even they're limited). I've had to engage in a few explain-a-thons myself when I've inadvertently stepped on someone's toes or offended someone's sensibilities through less than clear lingo. Hope you're feeling better.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 18:59:47 (GMT) From: Moldy Warp Email: None To: Monmot Subject: To Monmot Message:

Thanks . Too true about problems of communicating only in words. I am feeling better thanks. Despite misunderstandings, I love this forum as its somewhere we can be ourselves warts and all and not have to aspire to some crap concept of perfection let alone all that yukky brother and sister crap that someone referred to in recent thread.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 22:39:44 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Disculta Subject: My Personal Holocaust, I'm speechless! Message:

it's late, and I'm tired, but I must tell you that your post has really touched me..I'll talk to you soon, love Kelly

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:13:19 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Disculta, your Personal Holocaust Message:

Reading your post made me realize how deeply involved you were and I think many of your later health problems did indeed arise from being betrayed, heartbroken and abused by this ignorant piece of Hindu trailer-trash from hardwar. I know you will be healed and become whole but I would like to see the urug held accountable for the damage that he did to you and thousands of others whom he treated as hamsters in a lab - the lab of his own stupidity and selfishness. HE MUST APOLOGISE OR BE DAMNED FOR ALL ETERNITY!

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 18:59:03 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Relationships were a prostitution of divine love.. Message:

I guess I was on the cutting edge of bad taste and self-destruction myself by getting married in 1974, the year Maharaji got married (what I call the Summer of Love). My best friend at the time got married, and I got married a few months later, and both of us couples shared a house by the ocean. We all had been stalwart devotees in our community, aka workhorses of the highest order who started and ran 'divine' businesses. Our marriages were considered scandalous because we were becoming dreaded householders and because we stopped being slaves for God, although we continued to attend satsang and do service on nights and weekends. Not long after I was married, it was announced that Lou Schwartz was coming to town to give us 'special' satsang. Of course, the four of us attended, sitting together in the audience. Lou started out slow enough, basically berating the entire audience with how we were not doing enough for M to prove our devotion etc. He then ripped into the four of us with such stunning asperity, glaring directly at us, and going on about us drowning in the maya, telling that stupid story about going out for a glass of water, getting lost in the world, only to lose everything we possessed, and then crawling back to M, who *might* accept us back if we were humble enough...yada yada yada. I turned into human tundra at that moment and was so awash in shame, I thought I was drowning in the shame, not the maya. Talk about scarlet letters... 'What had I done?,' I asked myself. I tortured myself like a cruel and petty dictator for my worldly folly, ad nauseam. Whether we would have eventually divorced or not, regardless of the massive guilt/shame we both endured, it's difficult to say, but all that guilt/shame didn't help one iota. My husband became somewhat of a buzzkill, walking around doing nectar, and looking like one of the cranes which were visible from our living room window, but such beauty was now considered maya. We did eventually split up, and my husband became the head of security at DECA, until one day he left a note on the table of the premies he was staying with, and split, never to be seen again in the Land of Prem. Shaming is a powerful tool, and Maharaji used it freely and willingly. That is obvious from the excerpts Joe has posted (thank you, Joe and Ulf). His fear-mongering is so extreme that it should be considered and Olympic event (or would that be an 'Owimpic' event?). These excerpts have made me very angry. Who does he think he is to diminish and ridicule us in such a manner? God? Mr. Divine Hypocrite Made Flesh? That's more like it. I support Michael D's suggestion that EPO has a link to this information.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 00:39:50 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Monmot and Disculta Subject: To Monmot and Disculta Message:

What invaluable information from the point of view of folks in a relationship (which I was not)! I can see throught your eyes how the cult and the LOTA (not LOTU -- that little Indian pot that we used instead of toilet paper to wash our butts) screwed up your attempts at normal human relationships. I can also see that normal relationships for the rest of us were dead in the water before they started. What a killjoy. I think it was all about control. This picture is becoming too gross. Thanks for destroying some of the vestiges of denial I had left -- I thought I'd found them long ago. I don't know which was worse relationship or non. Monmot's description is chilling, and I do remember some of the inner torture the poor married devotees went through in the late 70s. Most of the marriages broke up and folks moved in ashrams. Now I know why. The ones who didn't break up were strong indeed. But as you have both so eloquently stated, strong but scarred.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:37:09 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Shattered truths and shattered illusions.... Message:

I just related about an inch of a ten mile uphill hike. There were all sorts of other complications, like one person being asked to come early to a festival to do service, while the other held down the fort etc. Weird stuff. But to be ignored by Maharaji, like Disculta was, and particularly when she knew him personally, must have been painful in the extreme. I still had fantasies about Maharaji, while Disculta was getting hers smashed. At that time, I think that that must have been incredibly shattering, no matter how beneficial it turned out to be in retrospect. Take care M

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 20:50:36 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Monmot Subject: A Woman Scorned Message:

I didn't get married to Booth Dyess in 1974, but not for lack of trying. He was the Ashram Supervisor in Houston, and the whole community knew I was gaga over him. I wrote to Maharaj Ji asking permission for Booth and I to marry, but of course never received an answer. When Booth called me into the room where he was interviewing ashram residents one-on-one, and co-ercing us into signing our Permanent Vows, he told me not to be afraid to express my true feelings...so I lunged at him, grabbed his throat, and tried to strangle him. He was much taller and stronger than I was, so he just held me down on the floor with one hand like a puppy until I stopped heaving and sobbing, and was ready to sign the paper. As a part of the DUO outreach program, Booth and I visited inmates in prisons and mental hospitals and gave them satsang. The following is a letter written by Booth to a prisoner named Juan, which really hurt my feelings at the time and still pisses me off. (You can't really grok the depth of his hypocrisy unless you realize I was giving him blow jobs in the satsang hall every night after everybody else was asleep.) Letter from Booth to Juan, 9-19-74 Just lately, Barbara and I have been together a lot. What Guru Maharaj Ji has been showing us is that love is really the supreme thing. People use the word 'love' as if it were a very common thing. But really, once Guru Maharaj Ji lets you feel what it's really like, it's hard to fool yourself into accepting anything else. In fact, it's impossible to be really satisfied with anything but the grace of love, called devotion, for Guru Maharaj Ji. Everything, everyone, every experience and feeling comes from just this one source. When we are distracted for a moment from this source, we get caught up instead in the pleasures of our senses and thoughts. It is only Guru Maharaj Ji who can catch us when we start to fall into these temporary attachments. We get 'drunk' and thrown into the jail of our little day-to-day lives. He has so much compassion. He does not scold or punish us for our foolishness. He has given us the supreme thing, a love that can satisfy every desire and carry us beyond our finest imaginings. Still, sometimes we get caught up in emotions and desires so much less satisfying than this Knowledge. If we forget Him, still He does not forget us. This has always been my experience. This is one way I am sure He is our Lord. Because He is pure mercy, like a loving Father who always forgives His children for their foolishness. And you know, when He takes us back (when we turn our attention back to Him), we are then even more than before firmly bound to Him by the attraction of His love. In this way He makes even our foolishness into a grace to bring us always closer to His perfection. Juan, I feel like a child who has tried many times to run away, to disobey, to pretend I do not know how my life is directed. But I am so happy. He never leaves us or gives up on us. Everything we experience, whether it seems good or bad, is a gift to us bringing us into His truth and love.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 22:01:09 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Babs Subject: A Woman Scorned Message:

Wow. Amazing that you kept all that stuff and wrote journals. Maybe you should write a book about all this. It's almost too incredible not to be fiction. I don't know what on earth you saw in Booth. Maybe it was that he was an authority figure. Wasn't your relationship with him the reason you got sent to COLL? COLL was kind of an 'ashram reform school' for a bunch of people, and mahatmas, as I recall. I took over from Booth as community coordinator in Miami in 1979. Booth was so 'not into' being the CC there, that I just took over from him and never even talked to him about it. He went to the cult travel agency and the next time I saw him, he was picking up Joe Anctil's dry cleaning.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 23:36:04 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Babs Subject: Booth is/was an emotional cripple... Message:

I knew Booth and, in fact, attended his wedding. I think his wedding lasted longer than his marriage. Booth was in the ashram while he conducted his affair with a 'community' premie, who got pregnant. He married her, but left her within a week or two and moved back into the ashram and was transferred elsewhere, cutting off all contact with his wife and soon-to-be-born infant. There's a special place in hell for people like that. I can only hope he's changed.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 01:49:22 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Maybe He Was Just Programmed Message:

Programmed and brainwashed by being subjected to the above psychotic crap. Perhaps had he not been an ashram premie (or a premie at all) he would have behaved in a somewhat more responsible manner. So I wouldn't blame him completely.

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 04:30:39 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joy Subject: I agree.... Message:

I guess that's why said he 'is/was' an emotional cripple. To be fair, I wouldn't want to be judged now for past times either. I doubt any of us would. :-) I certainly believe (and know) a person can change, thank god. Thanks M

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 16:50:27 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Monmot Subject: I was an emotional cripple, too Message:

I had completely forgotten about it until I read Disculta's and then Bab's post but I went through the same thing. I was out of the 'shram when Atlantic City happened and happily catching up on love from the second chakra. A good friend came back with his mind blown and so I was sure I'd missed someting incredible - then followed that dizzying set of programs. I chose not to move back into the ashram and was cut some slack because I did full time service. I was living with my girlfriend (now wife) but still getting to go to those post-festival 'conferences'. Somehow, I thought I was special and immune from the rant-fests and actually pitied and envied the truly devout. Pity because of the pressure on them and envy because they were more devoted than I. I just remembered today though, at some point I told my girlfiend that I wanted to move our beds apart (we had 2 of those Denver ashram paltform beds) and stop having sex. I needed space to see if I was going to move back into the ashcan and follow the initiator's path. She cried herself to sleep every night. So I wasn't as immune from those conferences as I thought. Today I will talk with her about it and tell her I'm sorry. The idea that you can cut yourself off from human feelings and urges and biological drives is absolutely rediculous. It was like being neutered so I can relate to emotional cripple part - the goal back then was to become emotionally dead!

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 17:04:25 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Postie Subject: Me too...most of us were back then Message:

Postie: I've been thinking about this also, because I realized I was being unduly harsh about Booth, and realized I was being, if not unfair, at least unforgiving. I saw up close some of the carnage he left behind, but then again, I imagine most of us left some sort of snail track back then, myself included. You're dead on that the goal was to become emotionally dead--one that I achieved with great success. Many years of therapy were required to defrost the tundra that I had become. I am sure your wife will really appreciate your honesty and compassion, and that you'll be able to let go one more little cult chunk of memory. Take care M

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Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 21:55:35 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Me too...most of us were back then Message:

Well, I don't think you were too hard on Booth, and, besides, isn't he still an EV honcho of some sort? If so, fair game, I think. I do agree, though, that Maharaji is ultimately responsible for most of this, by the crap he indoctrinated into us. I'm sure Booth was put in this position of his new wife and kid on the one hand, and 'the ultimate' and the chance to serve the living God on the other. But still, as with all of the awful stuff people did in the cult, there is still some personal responsibility. I mean, some people were awful, and others weren't, and we all got a lot of the same programming. Like David Smith, who was about the worst Nazi of the bunch. Very few people did the awful things he did. And he also seemed to enjoy seeing suffering so much, which was particularly disgusting. No, there were some wonderful people who were premies, who, despite all the nonsense, kept their humanity.

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:54:14 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Babs Subject: Thanks for outing Booth ... Message:

... because in doing so, you had to tell some real personal stuff. I was told by a friend who used to be in the SF community that he had an affair her while he was in the Miami ashram (she was not, but was a very devoted premie in the community), and the lack of human response she got from him over what she was going through, and his denial about his cocknitive dissonance was quite hurtful to her. And of course, in the face of what he was representing himself to in the community, dishonest indeed. I have no reason to 'out' her, because I haven't seen her in years. Babs, I'm starting to get the feeling he left a trail of broken heart ...

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:23:29 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Babs Subject: good story Message:

And I couldn't figure it out, those ashram guys would come on so strong and then run like hell if I got interested. It must have been so weird to actually live in the ashram and have all that tension and bs around. Maybe he was one of those guys who think blow jobs aren't sex? Sounds familiar :)

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Date: Sun, Feb 25, 2001 at 21:22:36 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Babs Subject: Hell hath no fury....you crack me up, Babs Message:

To think that we took these insane, insincere, self-righteous drips seriously. This is priceless: ''When Booth called me into the room where he was interviewing ashram residents one-on-one, and co-ercing us into signing our Permanent Vows, he told me not to be afraid to express my true feelings...so I lunged at him, grabbed his throat, and tried to strangle him.'' And a jewel of uncompromising TRUTH: ''You can't really grok the depth of his hypocrisy unless you realize I was giving him blow jobs in the satsang hall every night after everybody else was asleep.'' I wonder who gets the medal for giving more blowjobs to these hypocritical sociopaths: you, me or Pauline Premie?

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