Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 06:45:53 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Another Michael Donner comment Message:

Down below, Michael Donner said the following: if we finally get the concept that m is not really about spreading k rather about self gratification we begin to see a pattern to al that he does. he wants to fly, loves flying...so he creates decca and perpetuates the myth that its all about getting round the world to spread k. I think this summarizes the whole trip in a nutshell, and it's what I have always thought myself. When premies say Maharaji is tireless, for example, in flying around the world in his $40 million plane to 'spread knowledge,' the reality is he LOVES to fly his plane around the world, and he LOVES to be swooned over and waited on wherever he goes. This is not a labor for him. He likes it. The 'spreading knowledge' crap is just that. That's why he has been such a miserable failure at 'spreading knowledge' and has fewer followers in the West than he had 20 years ago, and the aspirants are almost nonexistent, but he has been fantastically successful in amassing wealth and luxury for himself. Where his priorities are should be obvious to anyone with a brain.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:15:32 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Joe Subject: Thanks Joe and Donner ( keep bringing good stuff ) Message:

I am glad you made new threads with these, I would not have wanted to miss them.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 16:21:06 (GMT) From: Richard Email: post@rmi.net To: Joe Subject: Need for an essay section Message:

Joe, Thanks for bringing that up to the top. Yesterday was a mind blower (especially my coming out party) so I was afraid a lot of these nuggets would be lost. There are quite a few heartfelt and telling comments by Mike Donner tucked into many recent threads - some now inactive. Also one about how boring it was to wait around to get high with M. Plus all of the first-hand accounts by Dettmers and others I've been thinking, and maybe it's already in place, but there needs to be a 'essay' type section or something similar where all of the credible anectdotes plus insightful comments can be assembled by topic for others to reference. Otherwise many observations will fall inactive in all the current enthusiasm. I know Jean Michel has been doing this as a *Best Of* so, I'd be willing to help do this (after all, designing publications for M was my service so why not continue). J-M?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 17:39:37 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Richard Subject: Need for an essay section Message:

. Also one about how boring it was to wait around to get high with M. Plus all of the first-hand accounts by Dettmers and others I think I must have missed that one. Can you find that one and bring it up top? I agree re the essay section. I think there is a section for a lot of what Michael Dettmers has had to say, but I think one for Mr. Donner would also be appropriate. Of course, I haven't the slightest idea how to do that, but there seem to be a number of technologically advanced people around here who do all that quite well.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 18:01:57 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Joe Subject: Here's the getting high with M story Message:

This was under Jim's thread accusing Mike Donner in jest of being a Premie Plant. I made a pun out of it. (I just reread this and it would be fun to hear what M was like with a canabinol buzz.) RR: Speaking of premie plants Donner, here's a question that'll prove who you are once and for all. Who rolled 'em. You or the Sat Guru? DONNER: Not really sure who rolled them. never me and i doubt it was m. probably the butler...alvaro or john or patrick or whoever. by the way, i never smoked with m in the kitridge building (i don't think) but more then once around his home. on a personal note my ussual feeling around the 'residence' was most often boredom. the endless hours of hanging around waiting to be called upon, waiting to give a report, waiting to be asked a question..even waiting to party that evening, whatever was mostly boring, boring, boring. i remember being envious of dettmers because he could come and go, had arranged a system of appointments with m. i tried that once and he mocked me...who did i think i was dettmers, he said with a laugh. so i had to create excuses to be away from the endless waiting, gossip, dish washing, mindless stories told again and again, the litttle dramas of the fears and concerns of the inner staff. my nature was active, social, let's do something, kick this thing into gear...so, i figured, as i often did to justify the situation, that he was just busting my nature, creating situations for me to surrender to him in. but god it was painful most of the time. and what did that say in my head when the 'satsang' kicked in? what an ungrateful retch i was, couldn't even relax at the lotus feet...boy, i sure needed to get straighten out and dr. m knew all about me and just what i needed to get fixed. even getting stoned a few times a month in miami or malibu was boring to me. but imagine not showing up...choosing other friends over such a covetted opportunity. great balls of fire. RR: And to think almost everyone else would have walked on glass on their knees to SPEAK with M. Your description of the boredom and bad treatment at M's whim is one less brick in the wall.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:22:14 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Richard Subject: Malibu Joint: Bustin' Loose! Alien Love Child! (nt Message:

hot off da press...

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 00:45:36 (GMT) From: Mark Email: None To: Richard Subject: Here's the getting high with M story Message:

in response to your response and donner's now on inactive. I did not in my mind betray confidences. Nor was outing anybody except M my intention.It's not like I was accusing him of being a murderer, total liar, or delusional madman, or enforcing an e-rated party,which is now common practice. Or his ( from other FORUM reports, 20 year relationship was Monica Lewes - who by the way I know somewhat and is a nice person ) Just an insensitive out of control egomaniac. The piece was really about how long it's taken me, and the the Consensus post-premie, to call a spade a spade. And how his inconsistencies get glorified into personal darshan tales by the De-voted ones. OK, and maybe goof on his appetite for getting 'high',despite the way he used to how he was 'Permanently in the Infinite State.' But frankly he's easy bait. Koran has passed away. she was using me as her astrological consultant at that time. So I feel comfortable making her contribution to the Forum. Cynthia Korman was a friend, who Raja Ji plucked from her Dawn cigarette spokesperson role,and ensconsed as his 'piece' on the side.Later,Maharaji took his psychological run at her. Anyway,her life 'at the Lotus feet,where you can really let it go' was some sort of Human Rights violation to me, so I'm comfortable telling this bit of her tale.She told me that John explained the Acid story to her directly. Joan Lahey,who suffered greatly and left 15 years ago,but was 'housemother' at that time, proudly explained to me about the big chunks of hash under the bed at the Dahlia St. residence. J.Hampton told me his bit, and Lou Schwartz told me the IHQ story. Teddy T. regaled me over lunch ( no vibe or anger or secrecy ). Carol Eannace married the guy Marolyn was sleeping with,we met and chatted 10 years ago, and as she was a friend at the clinic in Denver in '74 and definitely OUT of the scene due to Rawat family dynamic . Michelle was an art teacher to the master,and was also formally courted in San Antonio(during an instructor conference!).This was second hand but from an unimpeachable source. Grace Maas and I had contact as she was Claudia's lady in waiting in '75-77, newly married, a real Soldier for the Lord, until the Lord courted her. She was gone it seemed overnight. Gwen I formally remove as that was 2nd hand. There are Many Names and Many Stories that I have assiduously avoided mentioning now and in years past.Even things like Anon's or Rt's identities. They would in my mind be sensational or unfair, and unneccessary. Speaking of sensational expose's , how about hiring the reporters at the www.nakednews.com, to put together a video on the dark side of our reverend Moon !

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:11:25 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Mark Subject: Mark: thanks for comments re: naming names, etc Message:

Mark, First of all, your original post was probably one of the most outrageous commentaries on the real world of M & K ever. I bow to your amazing story telling abilities. Post more often. Secondly, I did not mean to tinkle on your Khumba Mela but a big red flag went up when I thought we might be having a belly laugh at the expense of the victims. I was echoed by others but most importantly by Susan who was molested as a child by Jagdeo and whose opinion I highly respect. Someone else reported their molestation by Padarthanand yeasterday as well. It was a very wild day. So I'm still of two minds here. You've done a huge service to remove chinks from the Captain's armor. PWK's and Ex's alike had their minds blown yesterday by your post and I'm all for that. Shining your search light on the premie subculture mythology does wonders. At this point, though I hope none of those people were hurt further by that. Some may even be flattered by the notoriety, who knows. But I wouldn't want first hand information to be lost due to rumour or speculation. Donner said he backed off from posting because of false speculation. So, I'll leave it at that and perhaps someone else can weigh in with another perspective. Thanks for clearing up the details.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 06:36:37 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Richard Subject: Mark: thanks for comments re: naming names, etc Message:

Thanks from me too. I don't see anything in what Mark said that is derrogatory about anyone except Maharaji. All Mark actually said is that Maharaji came on to these women, and it sounds like they split. They all got out of the cult. I didn't know Cynthia Korman, but it sounds like what Maharaji and Raja Ji did to her, which Mark knows from first-hand information, was so outrageous it needs to be said, just in the cause of justice.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:30:35 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Donner Subject: Here's the getting high with M story Message:

Donner I have to say I love the raw honesty in your writing. I cringe when I read it, I think my repression must work pretty well, as until I read something like that I don't recall how I thought as a premie.... But that story, and how you were trying to make the boredom into some sort of Divine Lesson...we all thougt like that. So guilt driven we were. I for one LOVED to chit chat and gossip...and constantly chastised and loathed myself for that weakness. The cult was set up to make us hate ourselves.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:30:34 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Donner Subject: Here's the getting high with M story Message:

Donner I have to say I love the raw honesty in your writing. I cringe when I read it, I think my repression must work pretty well, as until I read something like that I don't recall how I thought as a premie.... But that story, and how you were trying to make the boredom into some sort of Divine Lesson...we all thougt like that. So guilt driven we were. I for one LOVED to chit chat and gossip...and constantly chastised and loathed myself for that weakness. The cult was set up to make us hate ourselves.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 19:21:57 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Richard Subject: Thanks...**BEST?** Message:

I missed that one. This is also a 'keeper.'

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 14:38:30 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Joe Subject: Kali Yuga! Message:

That was the excuse we used in the bad old devotional days for why the Perfect Master seemed awfully ineffective at his professed job: spreading enlightenment to more than a few thousand ex-hippies. Kali Yuga: the Age of Darkness had clouded the vision of all those unwashed reincarnated souls. So what's the current excuse for the sluggish rate of the Knowledge explosion, huh? It's looking as bad as the Nasdaq! (Ba-ding!) I guess the So-Called Guru can keep coasting along with a small coterie of grim-jawed veterans. Other gurus have maintained a comfortable lifestyle with less. Of course, Maharaji is accustomed to a lifestyle more 'obscenely lavish' than 'comfortable.'

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 08:39:17 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, that is it in a nutshell for sure Message:

I've told you before that I really enjoyed meditation. I went back to ''participate'' afer a 17 absence BECAUSE I thought K was great and that I would love to be part of teaching it to others. It took me a year to find out that that was not what Rev Rawat has in mind. He knows he needs more aspirants in the west but only to finance his hobbies. Campaigns for more money were always accompanied by campaigns for more propagation. Cold, calculating and shrewd but shortsightedly smart. He lives from one trinket to the next and has built a house of cards. It's falling down around his ears as we speak. He is quite stupid. He has no respect for the meditation and relies totally on the contact-high juju. Intelligent people find that boring after a while. It works just fine my five dogs rely on mine. They are so thrilled at the sound of their master's voice and they don't even mind anymore when I put a leash around their necks. Here, premie. Come boy. Sit. Good doggy. I guess I shouldn't knock Rev Rawat's kinky little dominance/submission hobby. I just wish he'd be more honest and wear fishnet stockings and crack a whip.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 07:04:12 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Joe Subject: Another Michael Donner comment Message:

He is a very selfish person who could care less about any body else but himself. #@'!* I am so mad and at the same time grateful for the clarity I am getting by reading and participating in this forum. Thanks...

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 06:38:05 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Very important to bring up top Message:

I hope Michael and everyone doesn't mind, but I thought Michael Donner's comments were too important to be buried down in a thread below. It's another explanation for Maharaji's abuse of alcohol, and also his tendency to make everyone else do the dirty work and to take responsbility for nothing. Thanks, Michael hi again, i think it was joe (above or below) who asked if i ever saw or heard of a more active intervention re m's drinking. i was never a part of one, bob mishler, to his credit once tried to speak to him about it and got no where of course. interestng that the notion of m blaming others comes up in context of his abuse of alcohol. i personally believe that he uses booz to cover over the anxiety he feels by trying to play the part of someone in control and capable of creation and control and the reality that he is so bad, terribly bad at creating a lasting vehicle to responsibily spread knowledge. his blame was constant. behind the door of his home or whatever he would not hesitate to name specific individuals he thought were 'idiots (and worse)'. never to their face, never. i know he spoke about me in negatives more then a few times but to myface only occasionally would make some rude joke about my nature (his view of it) which would clue me to his hesitations about me (look, i'm gone,he was right, he could not trust me). i was sent many times to 'deal' with someone he was scapegoating and never allowed to quote him...try to get the message of dissatisfaction across without destroying the person and create some distraction for them, another service or whatever, and keep the ball of illusion moving forward. for me, those were the most gut renching times as i carried a thing from my upbringing about fairness and respect for honest effort. i use to feeling and believe that those assignments were a test...that he knew more about me then i did and was determined to beat my sense of community and fair play towards others out of me for my own good so that i could surrender only to him. as i write this remembering, it brings up lots of saddness for me. over the years i have tried to mend some fences with some and let the rest go, trusting the universe to bring us round. he was guttless, never dooing his dirty work. he even created double trouble, sending one of us on an errand to move someone, say something, only to publicly contradict the messenger. all part of some strange idea he had about stepping on any potential base of power other then himself. completely insecure. unable to manage honestly and openly what he himeself would put in motion. i think alcohol was one means he chose to be able to get thru a day dealing with the contradictions he created himself.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 09:11:39 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Joe Subject: Very important to bring up top Message:

Reading all of Donner's and Dettmers' comments today about Rawat's alcohol usage made me think about the alcoholic's I have known including my own close brush with it. I was wondering whether addiction to alcohol causes the problems and can be blamed, as is politically correct, or is alcoholism the solution to already existing problems. I can only speak for myself. I used hard liquor (like cognac) for about ten years in the 80s as a way of deadening myself to inner misery and turmoil. My drunken temper tantrums and abusive behavior to others was caused by defects in my own character. The alcohol lowered my inhibitions about behaving so badly and also temporarily alleviated my bad conscience. Fortunately I had enough sense to see that I had better do something about my negative outlook and attitude. The more I regained my mental health the less need there was to self-medicate with alcohol. Now I usually only drink wine with dinner and joke that I don't drink liquor because I have too much Irish blood and it makes me want to fight; that alcohol made from grains evokes barnyard animals while alcohol made from grapes evokes the muses. So I feel that, if liquor were truly an addictive drug, then everyone who drank it would be an alcoholic. Alcohol over-use or abuse seems to be self-medication for psychological ailments such as insecurity, shyness, inferiority complexes, feeling victimized, not in control and vulnerable. Rev Rawat needs therapy but even more he just needs to wake up and smell the coffee and realize that he could solve all his psychological problems by giving up the silly game he is playing. His uneasy conscience would clear up overnight. I sometimes give him the benefit of the doubt and think that he is trapped in a superstitious vortex of resentful obedience to a dead master, his father's agya and has not yet realized that he is not up to the job and doesn't have to do it if he doesn't want to. His heart's not really in it and he is more interested in the perks and trappings of the job than the job itself. He may even think he's doing the right thing but as Shakespeare said: ''Doing the right thing for the wrong reason is the last and greatest treason.''

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Date: Thurs, Mar 15, 2001 at 22:53:09 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Maharaji's conscience Message:

You said, 'I sometimes give him the benefit of the doubt and think that he is trapped in a superstitious vortex of resentful obedience to a dead master, his father's agya and has not yet realized that he is not up to the job and doesn't have to do it if he doesn't want to. His heart's not really in it and he is more interested in the perks and trappings of the job than the job itself.' That sounds pretty probable and accurate to me. But I bet that when he's actually in the thick of it, sitting on a throne giving 'satsang' (I respect the word too much these days to use it without quotes for his drivel), he probably goes back into a world where it's all true. I think he must actually be very fragmented, and fragmentation is really dangerous for people around a fragmented person, because there is no accountability. Your post was quite brilliant, as usual darling.

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 03:41:02 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Maharaji's conscience: non sequitur (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 02:14:38 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Thanks, Katie. I'm going to post some thoughts Message:

about ''What if Rawat is Krishna?'' since he still refers to Krishna having to come again and again. Without giving the whole thing away, I'll say that my conclusion is that Krishna is an interfering busybody.

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