Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 12:36:15 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: Apple 4256@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
With the conjunction of Maharaji's LA
program, and a 50 th birthday party for my sister- in- law , I had the chance to have a series of direct, honest , and high intensity encounters with quite a few friends who had just gotten the gas tank filled up at a program the day before. There were as many points of view on M as there were people. But if there was one clear understanding I got from it all, it was that right, wrong,good or bad ,the M phenonenon is a belief system. Each quote that follows is a comment from a current premie.
'I've been with him alone. He's the real deal. You know when you pick on him, it's like someone attacking my wife.A lot of these people here are intelligent good people and your friends, and you're insulting them. Of course this is not about meditation techniques, it never has been. M's mistress is a minor player in all this.Its about devotion- and it works for me, and a lot of the people here.'-- --
i know. it worked for me too; until it didn't.
there is a mountain nearby that has a 'sleeping woman' in it.ie, if somebody tilts their head at this angle at this time of day ( and someone has told you to look for it) you can experience what might be construed as a sleeping woman.That's what this whole M phenomenon is to me. A construct, a collage of Hindu devotional patter, a litany of various claims ( spiritual lineage, cosmic power, this is the true path, 'I am the master) , human longing for emotional belonging,recognition, & certainty, the genuine human desire to get high and be free.IF you are willing to bend down and look at M with the sun behind him in this particular way, he CAN become your living god. AND if you do accept and invigorate that belief with regular immersions into this 'way' he will get stronger and stronger in it. NO DOUBT about it. and as you continue to invest your own magic into it, it will get more and more powerful. And M will happily and helpfully be there to act 'real' for you ( anyone who has ever basked in the glow of the 'satsang' or any public attention/philosopher chair knows how pleasurable that is ) because its good for him to play god.This is by no means unique to M. There are quite a few
folks in the living God business and some of them have powers M
doesn't have ( including the ability to share personally, love and compassion with 'followers' ) My stating publically from a genuine heartfelt point of view,this is a devotional cult, is not an insult. It's like seeing all your friends blowing dope every time you see them. Eventually you realize you don't want to. So you stop,but don't
'judge' them. Then eventually for truth's sake, you call a spade a spade.Otherwise you're enabling them. Then you realize that you enjoyed dope until you felt it was limiting you,so you get on with you life, and let your head clear.And then you EXPERIENCE how limiting it all was.unfortunately you can't experience that until you exit the dope/master thing. . .
'mark, I feel that you're right on. BUT WHAT IF YOU'RE WRONG??'
Wow !OK. let's look at this one.Certainty. Fear. Heaven and hell. Getting kicked out of the universe. I literally went through waves and force fields as I unravelled from my own potent brand of self-delusionary mumbo-jumbo. Part of that was definitely that M was this poor Jewish boy's Jesus, take me through the light to heaven, giver of the grace, my own personal Johnnie Cochran
for an angry and judgemental God.
Did he create that in me? NO.
Did he and does he continue to create the enviornment that that sort of thinking florishes in? OF COURSE.
I HAVE NEVER FELT BETTER IN OR ABOUT MYSELF since leaving
M's world, and that feeling, is in the final analysis,is my true self and guide. So from my 3 year personal experience, you don't die when you leave- you just get certain crucial aspects of yourself back. And while completely 'grokking' the life insurance angle, I found that cashing in the policy and investing it in myself has paid enormous dividends.
'M's gonna know you posted on the internet' This one was like, dad's gonna be angry. Well, if the guru is all knowing he already knew.If we're all one, then this is just one tiny part of the ONE'S conversation with inself.If the guru is sincere, or doesn't have a clue, maybe stuff like this can help 'THE PERFECT INFINITE MIRROR' take a look at himself.Or he's the real deal, & he'll get pissed and send me to . . .Anyway, I love a lot of premies ( and about 50 % of them look in here - on the QT, of course ) from time to time) and this is my highest truth on our common pursuit . . .
'well mark, they always say that if you meet the Buddha on the road, Kill him.' this guy is a collection of one liners, but this one is right on. Let's say that for some, a frothing devotional enviornment is the best one to summon feelings and longings
for 'the All'. So professional Buddha's exist in all religious walks of life( even M said everyone should start with A religion- JUST NOT DIE WITH ONE ) to spark the higher calling. After they kickstart you , you SHOULD GET GOING. If M is a mirror, fine,
but there are other mirrors, and be careful that the mirror doesn't turn into a picture frame- of the GURU!If it does , it might be time to . . . break the mirror . . .thank the Buddha ( once sincerely will do, not the rest of your life) ,& then kill him
'you should have been at the program. whenever we all get together , it's the highest experience of the planet. We're on the edge of Love itself.' been there . done that. Gotta believe in it all for it to work.
The last three programs i went to after 'popping' out of the belief system were actually quite painful at times, and definitely more pain than pleasure.I love hearing about truth and when M would speak about the glory of what I feel truly is, it was magnificent. However, when he would invariably speak about M's glory,at great length in his unique well honed 3rd person way, I couldn't
feel more uncomfortable. It was definitely oriented around the
Guru, not the student. Soak me up, so you can truly Be.Actually , I went to Della Reese's Jesus Church in LA on Sunday, and I bet you most inattendance felt like they'd been touched by an angel.
And as I believe, they had. If they believed in it.Same for premies.
I'm just at the point now of seeing this planet populated by 1000's
of belief systems ( or meme's ) that enable us , and also seriously limit us. M's system shows the best and worst of a belief system.
However, I just feel at this stage there is a species opportunity to slip out of this-self limitation conspiracy, that M is both a powerful and cartoonish example of.
'what do you mean 'knowledge lite' . It's a very powerful experience'
Absolutely.I'm not questioning or doubting that.
however, knowledge lite is a clear political retrenchment by our Clintonian guru. A centrist policy of 'try to give an hour a day'
and I'm just a helpful guy , is clearly a full swing from 'always remember the holy name, you can't fit knowledege into your life, .
etc., etc . . .'Those of us from the 70's ALL recieved the de rigeur lobotomies
that we either secretly fondly remember, still proudly burnish,or have chosen with selective memory to forget.By Maharaji grace
EVERYTHING happened. Now that approach ( others are doing the indian master thing with much greater success)doesn't keep up the campaign contributions, so that level has been exorcised except for the private fundraiser, pre-knowledge selections, and 'true believer' or residence events.However, 'Knowledge Lite ' in my opinion, in a new sort of first level initiation, with' heavy knowledge' waiting, when the belief system has yeasted properly, in the wings.

gotta go make some money. I'll continue with my RANT, and
the partygoers positions, at next post.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 13:49:37 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Mark
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
Dear Mark,
I just had to tell you that I went to a BM festival, never remember what they were called, holi, etc. Anyway it was held in the summer at a college that was not in session in Rhode Island. The college property was adjacent to Sleeping Giant State Park. I didn't expect to be impressed but I was. From the college this cluster of 3 small mountains did indeed look like a sleeping giant. One inverted bowl shaped Mt. for the head another lower longer one for the belly and then another that was longer still and lowere than the belly and flat on top for the legs, only thing missing were arms and feet. It was great!
Your post was good and I don't want to take away from it with this 1st paragraph. I just hope you have people you are close to that aren't premies also.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:41:48 (EST)
From: mark
Email: non-premie friends
To: Robyn
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
yeah
2 bright lovely college aged kids &
a beautiful and fearless wife.
and as far as only premie friends
i do live here in the emerald city
( malibu suburbs) so premies are part of the package
BUT this is Socal for god's sakes
so really as long as i tell them
where i'm at / its all ok w/me & them i think
just a shorter christmas card list.
obviously, there have been a few mortalities
and a few 'church lady' types
but also like JW a few like me
who have or are in the process
of being belched out of the belly of the whale.
others have no idea i've shifted allegiances
on them, so
its funny seeing the change in them
when they find i've burnt 'my draft card'
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:58:21 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: mark
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
Dear Mark,
Wonderful! I have one daughter out of college for 1 year although she started a year early and one just 1 year away from going to college, 1 year early. It is how they can get away from mom in an honorable way and still keep their place in my good graces. :)
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 14:02:58 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
Mark,
I really appreciate your eloquence and clarity of expression about what I also am feeling, but am not as good as saying. Looking forward to your continuence. I just watched the Long Beach video from last Dec. and while there were moments in which I enjoyed myself, in which M reminded us about the experience being our own, he then goes on to say things that indicate that HE owns it and is contradicting himself, and I feel grateful for my realization that he is not a necessary conduit for the experience of which he speaks so highly.
carol
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 14:23:05 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
Mark,

That was a pleasure to read. Thanks. Your point about false facial recognition was excellent. Take a look at Carl Sagan's treatment of that human tendency in his last book, 'The Demon-Haunted World' (I think that's what it's clled and I'm too lazy to go find it.) That's exactly how it is/was. Exactly. In fact, do you mind if I use that metaphor and tell people that I made it up myself?

Always looking to improve my portfolio.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 14:58:22 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
Hi Mark,

Can't say I envy you having to try to talk rationally to a bunch of post-program premies who are in various states of denial. Very interesting comments, and they sound like many I have heard over the years, with the exception of the comment about the mistress. You also said:

IF you are willing to bend down and look at M with the sun behind him in this particular way, he CAN become your living god. AND if you do accept and invigorate that belief with regular immersions into this 'way' he will get stronger and stronger in it. NO DOUBT about it. and as you continue to invest your own magic into it, it will get more and more powerful.

I fully agree that if you want to believe in BM enough and contort yourself to look at him in the right (i.e. programmed) way, he CAN be your living god. I mean, people make gods out off all kinds of things and firmly believe in them. But I'm not so sure about some sort of unlimited growth and power that happens if you do that. I think there is a definite limit, perhaps different from person to person. It certainly was for me. Like you said, at one point it stopped. And I think it has stopped for most premies who have been involved for any length of time. And I think that even premies who continue some enthusiasm for BM usually plateaued years ago, and aren't really having the greatly pleasurable and satisfying experience they have learned to say they have, partly in an attempt to convince themselves they are really having it.

Then what BM is truly becomes a religion (or as you say, a belief system), with a mixture of revival (program) highs, nostalgia for the strong and exciting 'high' one had at the beginning or at certain earlier, more innocent times, a certain social, group-feeling of belonging and the group pressure that goes along with that, and a strong catholic/jewish fear of missing out on the messiah of out time if one stops believing. BM used to really rant about that to scare the shit out of us about this. I don't know if he still does, but premies from the 70s, who seem to be the bulk of the people still into BM, are already well indoctrinated in that regard.

M's gonna know you posted on the internet' This one was like, dad's gonna be angry.

Did some premie actually say this? This is very sick and very creepy. The vengeful god. This is so much a part of much of our religious upbringing, but it really is astounding that premies would say something like this, and really fear it, while saying at the same time that all BM is about is 'enjoying life' and that he is such a truly superior fountain of love. The contradiction is apparently lost on them.

And in retrospect, I know that while I did enjoy some of being a devotee of BM, that was only SOME of the time. Much of the time it was a real drag and kind of suffocating. As you say, you have to get out of it before you can even see that, however, so strong is the self-deception.

The last three programs i went to after 'popping' out of the belief system were actually quite painful at times, and definitely more pain than pleasure. I love hearing about truth and when M would speak about the glory of what I feel truly is, it was magnificent. However, when he would invariably speak about M's glory,at great length in his unique well honed 3rd person way, I couldn't feel more uncomfortable.

This pretty much explains what I felt at the last few programs I attended in 1982-1983, and it was somewhat worse, probably, because those programs were much more blatantly BM-worship events and there was literally no support for those of us questioning. Fortunately I had a couple of premie friends who split aroung the time I did and we supported each other. I would add to the word 'uncomfortable' the words 'alone,' but I would also add the words, for me, 'excited about getting my life back.'

I also agree that the new 'knowledge lite' is basically a loss-leader, meant to be more relatable to people than the devotional cult, but the more heavy stuff is held for later. I think the instructors manual is illustritive of this, showing that even in the aspirant process, the heavier stuff isn't even mentinoned until later in the process.

Thanks for the ranting, Mark. Love to hear more of the premies' quotes. I must admit, however, I'm glad it's not me having to listen to them.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 15:59:03 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
I just spent about an hour listening to the woman who inspired me to investigate various healing paths. She's a premie, just back from Long Beach. As much as I appreciate the role she's played in my life as a friend and fellow truth seeker, I now feel that our relationship is strained and difficult. She bought a tape of Daya and was playing it really loudly while we talked--maybe she thought I'd become inspired again.

I feel so far removed from the programming that allows people to worship M. It seems so wierd to me now. I have the forum to thank; honestly, I felt I was at a standstill in my life for the past few years. I'd go to see M hoping to work myself up to that bliss I remembered. But it was clearly not working for me towards the end. I'm starting to feel some real closure, esp. after viewing the LOTU video.

Thanks for being there,
eb
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 16:06:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: any details, eb?
Message:
eb,

Any gossip? Did Maharaji mention the page in any way according to your friend? Did you give your friend mindsang?
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 21:40:14 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
You know, I don't know if I'll ever be able to go to Long
Beach again, even for a ferry to Catalina Island!
I read that name and I cringe, I remember the same things, eb,
going time and time again trying to catch some high that was
missing, blaming myself for not being cool enough or spiritually evolved enuf to get it.
and, coming out the other side, becoming interested in life agian, knowing that I have a role in directing my life and a responsibility in how I act.
What a relief and a reawakening of energy and motivation! I'm just glad they don't hold my work conventions there.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 16:13:23 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
I also find it creepy that a premie would imply that BM is going to know that someone posted on the Internet.

I found, years after I left the BM, that I was carrying a similar belief about God. I had cultivated a vague belief that God exists, based on scanty evidence of intelligence in nature (water evaporates, makes clouds, then rain, that waters the plants that feed us... that sort of thing), into an insistence that I know God exists. There was also a strong underlying fear that I better not piss Him/Her off.

After doing alot of thinking, and relinquishing the same sort of belief system in God, that I had in BM, I considered how little I actually know about it. I also did some imagining about how I would want to be if I were God. I realized I wouldn't want to get pissed off and vindictive because someone didn't believe in me, or even if they insulted me. After all, I'd be God, not a tyrannical employer or dictator. I'd want people to love me on their own, without any fear. I mean, that's what normal people want anyway. So how could God be 'lower' than that. It wouldn't make sense. No, the easiest and best way to test anyone's God, is to tell them to 'Fuck off'. If the God's real, it'll be okay. And if not, He/She can't do much anyway.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 17:22:48 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: Mark and JW
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
Thanks Mark for your description, if that's the word of how it feels to be in a belief system (probably any kind?) and JW for what keeps you in it.

Mark I really relate to it being like, if you squint and really want to believe. I think of something from Shakti Gawain's Dancing in the Light, which I didn't think was very significant when I first read it - she said someone (thing?) can 'channel' the 'god' experience and reflect/connect it for you for a while but then it will change. For example, when you fall in love, you feel so blissful, safe and connected - like that feeling you can't do anything wrong, every step you take is in synch with the universe and has a higher purpose, etc (I felt that on LSD too).

But she said what happens is it moves, the connection, because it is not in that thing you saw it in. Then you are left looking at the 'shell'. I think she said this is because it comes through you and is reflected at times outside of yourself but does not exist there.

I don't know if this thought is helpful as to 'why' this happens. I certainly know it happens with drugs and also new age thinking. It can be very exciting to think you are the creator of the whole of your own reality, through your beliefs (which I also found to be hurtful, damaging and addictive material). So what interests me, you mention moving beyond these beliefs...as a species? Is that what you're saying there?

One thing I know is that being in the presence of M in person was confronting for me. It made me really look at (feel) where I was at, honestly. But now I feel that I don't want/need to wait 1 or 2 years to be at his feet and have him be my 'father'. I have what feels like a strong connection to life as my teacher.

Astrologers, do you think this 'mood change' is symbolised by Neptune going into Aquarius - I read this is to do with seeking truth and needing to find out, not just believe. Or perhaps that is irrelevant - I didn't particularly 'believe' it when I read it but I seem to see it happening, here anyway, and therefore the 'mystique' of M can't survive, beautiful though it may have been at times, it was also suffocating.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 17:49:54 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
Yes, it moves....the thing that one projects god onto moves ...changes....silly dills we are ....we were looking in the wrong place .....we were looking at the finger pointing at the moon rather than the moon....so where is the moon? Where is god?
Who is asking? God is asking . God is within.
God has manifested in human form!
It's true! God has individualised into a multitude of god-selves.
That's the MYSTERY!
The jokes on us. God has manifested as a sceptic who says god is a lot of bunkum. HAHAHA!
God is like my dog but with consciousness of self thrown in for good measure.
Feel it !
You are it so you may as well feel it!
Maharaji is one of many mirrors to tell you that you are what you seek.
When you have really understood this you can dispose of the mirror if you wish.
If you have not understood this than you have not yet learnt how to look into a mirror.
SO ....to all us little gods who play hide and seek with ourselves.... blessings to US!!
Swami Keith ji.
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Date: Fri, Jun 05, 1998 at 18:18:19 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: golddiva@wire.net.au
To: Keith
Subject: Beyond Belief
Message:
The mirror.
I know who I am, But who are you?
I am your reflection.
The penny drops!
The mirror cracks.
The duality ceases.
The questions .....what questions?
Can one live that way?
My answer is...no..I can't..not consistently.....so what
to do?
Keep finding mirrors .
Keep seeing your reflection.
See who you are!
Drop the mirror. (by pass the penny).
Welcome to the bliss. (time disappears).
Where did IT go? (time returns).
Where's a mirror?
Get it?
There are two types of merry-go-round.
One is a circle that behaves like a rut....endless return.
The other is a spiral that behaves like an evolving force..
endless growth.
There is a place for both.
But don't get lost in just one.
Bliss ninnies and sceptics have a lot in common!!
What a blast this forum is!!
Keith
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Date: Mon, Jun 08, 1998 at 23:38:31 (EST)
From: *<*...b
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: them's the facts?...perhaps.
Message:
I like your writeing.
I still find myself comeing back to this, that even though I
have this or that experience, I dont think that erases
a larger conciousness that is concious on it's own just like
I am.

Here we are in these bodies and I know these girls who are
talking about wedding gowns and an impending wedding.
The last thing they want is to close thier eyes and decide
they are now god.

We are put here with all these tendencies and we are so very
prone to excess in everything. Dont you suppose we are designed
like we are so that we could all really fully BE just
our very own independent selves?
And the power that we are a part of has given itself traits
and a personality of sorts and that our fragmented condition
is not a grevious flaw but the design. We are all so different
that even with everything similar, family members consistantly
disagree. Even twins are like opposite poles of the magnet.

All this variety and inability to do a mind meld is part
of the design and for us to try to expand our ideas to some
all-encompassing view is perhaps fun but I think we are stuck
as finite by design. And as a good piece of luck. Individuality
is a great thing. rawat wanted us to be some ant colony with us
as the obedient drones and him as the the god queen.
THERE is someone who believes that he can just ASSUME oneness
and because he does, the 'i am god' thing becomes real.

I think he has proved that the reality is something different
than that. It COULD be that we could just assume it, but the
design IS, that we cant. It is a good design and even if
our ideas are superiour to the ones that were chosen, WE didn't
do the decideing and THIS design is the one chosen and ends
up being the way it is.

Just a thought, what do you think?
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 02:04:55 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: *<*...b
Subject: them's the facts?...perhaps.
Message:
Bill,
I'll respond in an above thread.
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Date: Tues, Jun 09, 1998 at 08:17:58 (EST)
From: Judex
Email: None
To: *<*...b
Subject: them's the facts?...perhaps.
Message:
again, *<...b I have to say I like your ideas very much in that post.

To me your post contains good and valuable thoughts about individuality and design...you are obviously a thinker.
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