Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 05:07:22 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: shp Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

All the questions you ask are great, from my point of view. If you ask them in an open handed manner you will find many different answers. And many different 'right' answers. I wish you well in your exploration of life and your self. Cheers Peter

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 23:17:07 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: shp Subject: Hurray for shp....and welcome BROTHER Message:

My friend I cannot tell you how happy I am to read your post. You are taking big steps of spiritual growth. Don't worry if they are a little shaky right now because you will get stronger as you go. You are feeling your own power and it is not an illusion nor is it bad or crazy. There is a whole universe out there and you are most welcome to have it all. GRAB IT BY THE THROAT! Life is change. Change is learning. Learning is growth. Growth is life. (Soon you will be quoting Dr. Evil- 'Why am I always surrounded by frickin' idiots?') Ain't no holding you down now!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 23:55:31 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: ExTex Subject: Hey SHP, replace 'Knowledge' with knowing Message:

Hey, congratulations on your authentic expression of being in the middle of lots of conflicting beliefs. Here's my 2 cents, as an ex-premie for 16 years, who also worked a lot with people exiting from MJ and other cults, as a consultant: Biblical quotes can be used for anything. I'm not even sure where you got those quotes that were extracted and used to show that MJ was the reincarnation of Christ. But you surely know that the Bible has any number of translations and interpretations. There is a fascinating book called 'Prayers of the Cosmos' by Neil Douglas-Klotz, that gives the translation of the aramaic words of Jesus, which turns out to be VERY different than what the usual Bible says. Anyway, I wanted to say a bit in reference to the whole discussion below about hope and letting go of hope and doing it yourself, and all that. What it all came down to me, for me, was what I believed, not only consciously, but unconsciously. When I came to MJ I was consciously an atheist, and actually raised as such, but having some definite experiences of a Higher power that were knocking my socks off and changing my life. I found myself in satsang and my immediate, gut response, was that the people were sort of cultish and the light in their eyes wasn't the real light of human gleaming to human, but human who thinks they know something that others don't. They weren't kind to me, with my insistent questions, until I surrendered and started getting interested in Knowledge. Then I was fodder for brainwashing, for days and days, still not loving. Somehow, in my very open and searching state, I lost touch with my inner compass, my direct, gut-level, felt sense of what was real, after a few days of satsang. I didn't get that inner compass back for at least 12 years, when my intense pain forced me to explore therapy and other practices to honor my own real inner knowing (quite, quite different from so-called 'Knowledge,' which in combination with the programming about exclusively-given-by, and must-be-a-devotee-to-realize was actually suppressing my inner knowing. When I started to get my 'inner knowing' back, it was everything that Knowledge had been billed as. It's quite funny, when I put it this way! I was able, finally, to admit to myself that MJ wasn't loving at all. I sat at a program, actually acknowledging what my emotional body was telling me as he ranted and played cute, and I was amazed that I had managed to shut up this brilliant BS detector for so long (with terrible health consequences, BTW). This inner compass guided me to lots of people and groups and teachings and other teachers, which I sampled and learned, or discarded and moved on, all being checked against my gut. The result was that my spiritual life blossomed in the most amazing way. I found that I could access my own inner guidance quite easily, that there was definitely some kind of source with accompanying grace to be accessed. But the beliefs I now projected on this 'source' were radically different than the ones around MJ, which were programmed into me for his benefit (give him everything, etc.). I decided to CHOOSE the kinds of attributes I wanted for my Higher Power (or whatever you want to call it), including such things as 'cares personally about me,' 'loves and supports all parts of me, including emotions and body and sexuality and desires,' etc. etc. This might sound cynical, but since God is supposedly infinite, we all have our belief window to access this more expanded consciousness - or more expanded version of ourselves, and we may as well create this consciously, since otherwise there are lots of other people and beliefs floating around that will happily fill the vacuum. And the observer does create the result of the experiment, and it's okay to tweak one's spiritual experience in this way. At least, no Divine Meat Axe has cut my head off, although people - even ex-premies - have been a bit disapproving at times. I am enjoying experiencing the support of the universe, and being quite diligent in creating the beliefs about things that I want, rather than the default subconscious stuff or, as I said, other people's beliefs, that will otherwise form my experience of 'reality.' You are free if you decide that you are. You are on a path that is inevitably taking you to greater and greater spiritual awareness, if you decide you are. You are accessing your real inner knowing, if you decide you are. And that fat Indian guy has absolutely NOTHING to do with any of it. He is irrelevant. I guess I wanted to say this because it hasn't been my experience that I've been 'on my own' spiritually since leaving MJ, as some of the post below may imply. I have certainly had to use all parts of my own power and courage and personal intuition, but I have felt more support, love and grace from 'the other side' than I ever did while a premie (despite what I would have told you back then). Hope this helps. Love, Disculta

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 15:02:35 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Discernment, self-esteem and faith Message:

Hi Disculta, Your name is very unnique name from my experience. What is its derivation? My birth religion, Judaism, had taught me more about ethics and human relationships than about the Deity, which was always shrouded in mystery. A wave of people came into bodies around the same time, post-war 1940's, who would eventually grow up and want to have a more direct relationship with and awareness of the Deity. Maybe it was a result of the worldwide fallout from the nukes, who knows? So when the 13 year old Maharaji came along proclaiming to be bringing the Knowledge of God and Peace to the world, we were already primed.... I was actively seeking enlightenment since my teenage years. I read Autobiography of a Yogi by Yogananda and used to play games with Babji in the middle of the night in a totally dark room. I'd lay there and pretend to be sleeping, and then suddenly say 'Babaji!' in a loud whisper, so as not to wake the rest of the family. Immediately, I would experience a blue shaft of laser-like light pierce through the dark ceiling of my bedroom and into my chest and heart. It was like a shock every time and it felt so cool and natural. In the book, it was said that if you say Babaji's (the eternally youthful 2000+ year old yogi who lives in the Himalayas) name with faith, you get an immediate blessing. I was testing that theory and it was working and introducing me to real spiritual power, not a just building full of traditions and rituials. One night I was reading the book in my parent's living room. It was very late and I was experimenting with my vision, just staring at my foot resting in front of me on the recliner. I was getting a buzzing feeling, and alot of evergy was becoming evident to my senses in the form of auric light and a change in visual acuity to a sharpness I cannot describe, laserlike. Anyway, I remember my mom coming out of the dark hallway and looking over at the chair I was in and acting like she was seeing something that was very surprising. I knew this by the way she called my name, a bit freaked. I don't know what she saw, if she saw light, if I had disappeared to her, or something. But her response was on that calibre. I asked her wht hse saw and she never has talked about it to this day. Now she says she doesn;t even remember the event. A few years later, in college, I did the same sort of test with Jesus the Christ and also got an immediate answer. Did my share of psychedelics and took them as medicine and as teachers, as sacred, not just as a joyride and a hoot. Learned alot. (When I heard that Charanand had said that LSD was like John the Bsptist for Maharaji, I could relate to that.) Spent time on the Farm in Tennessee learning from Stephen Gaskin. I know there are folks who love him and folks who hate him. All I can say about my personal relationhship with him is that he taught me alot about being straight and about truth. Spent time in a monestary also looking for more maps to heaven within, went through some very high energy initiations. During my stay in the monestary, saw a poster of Maharaji, the one with a closeup of his face and the simple question, 'Who is Guru Maharaji?' After a long and winding road of meeting premies in southern Illinois in the mid 1970's, leaving the monestary and hooking up with premies, seeing Maharaji in the Poconos for the first time, having a very strong personal connection with him eye to eye, I received Knowledge in 1978 in Philadelphia, Overbrook Ashram, David Smith instructor. Some of my zaps from Babaji years earlier had more juice than the Knowledge session provided, but I was told that it was not about 'cosmic' experience, it was much more subtle than that... Maharaji never did anything to me personally to mess with me. I had some very high experiences in his presence and have had extremely high experiences in my practice of Knowledge and my daily life while in the practice of Knowledge. What is creating my dissatisfaction is what I am learning about him from the direct experiences of other people with Knowledge, people who had very different experiences than I had, those experiences being less than what I would expect from him. It is that simple. So why am I telling you all this you may ask, Disculta? I guess it is coming out of me to let you know that I am not without my wits when it comes to my freedom and my continuing path to fulfillment, wherever it may lead me. I know the Bible can be used to prove a multitude of diametrically opposing viewpoints. It was my own personal experiences I wass having and continue to have that intuitively communicate to me that I was having a similar experience as so-and-so was having in the Bible. These experiences are not extinct, they are available and free to anyone who wants to tune into a particluar frequency, much like a radio station. I thank you for your input and you energy. I have to say that I can relate to how you felt during satsang programs. I felt that way too many times, but fought the urge because of the way he was presented as the Living Perfect Master. I knew what it felt like to get high from listening to someone speak, from the virtue of what was being said. If he was It, then it must be me who is out of whack. And that is what I chose to believe. So as my post title states, I am now faced with reviewing my discernment, my faith in answers to my own prayers, and my self-esteem. Working out alot in this lifetime as so many of us are, Sandy

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 21:01:52 (GMT) From: Danny Email: None To: shp Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

Greetings Señor Pass, I hear your cry for help and I feel your anguish. I won't presume to tell you what I think YOU should think or do (other than 'try not to screw it up with your lovely wife') and I'm sure whatever I say will be unpopular here. That doesn't matter one iota to me as I feel this place is a fairly obvious vortex where there is tremendous pressure to conform, agree and attack. You have been relentlessly and systematically abused and berated by the same people that are 'here for you' if and when you are swallowed into their belief system, (mis)perception and world view. I'm merely gonna attempt to give you a bulletin from the present, not one of the myriad spots that any well-meaning person can get stuck in along the way. Popular examples of this syndrome include: Were the ashrams closed properly in 1982; what was it Maharaji said about vegetarianism when he was 12?; what did Randy Prouty tell M about Susan 20 years ago? (that, I happen to know the answer to...nothing, zilch, nada); was it technically a crime to listen to Peter Frampton whilst having and sharing one's after-dinner herb in 1977, particularly since Frampton-specific taste statutes weren't enacted 'til much later at the birth of Punk, well after Pete's album was the biggest in the world? But I digress. I just spent 10 days in India with Maharaji, both up-close and in general, at the event. He was magnificent. He was pretty much exactly the same character he's always been , irrespective of title, era or belief template. I was strongly inspired and deeply moved by the timeless, placeless, wisdom and clarity that effortlessly poured out of him. So were the 100,000 or so people ( a group so large it was quite mind-bending to even look at) who were dancing, weeping, laughing and shining under the Indian moonlight. This wasn't the largely homogenous, whiny lil' bunch that you see on this page...there were long white-bearded grandpa/sages who have known the kid since he was 8, beautiful, soulful women in outrageous outfits...some incomprehensibly poor people as happy as clams...Oxford-educated Brahmin professors... There were an additional 32,000 people who received knowledge afterwards and the looks on their faces as they walked out would have silenced even the most Heller-ish of cynics. To put that in a little perspective, 32 would be an exaggeration of the number typically writing here. An enormous gamut of humanity, deeply and INDIVIDUALLY touched by this guy in the chair. He was beautiful to me and I saw him connecting, one-on-one to all kinds of people. All speculation aside, you could see where he was just by looking at his face. The most centrally located person I've ever seen. He sits on a wealth of joy (not a mere joy of wealth), so huge and so tangible, that merely by showing up someplace, anyplace in the world, actually, his presence sparks off that same inexhaustible supply in those lucky enough to be there. Who else here has that ability? Michael Dettmers? Anybody remember his speeches? And though clearly an intelligent, competent guy, I can say that I was around you peripherally for years, Michael, and you never gave me so much as the time of day. That mastery, that you said you witnessed too many times to count? I saw it in action over and over again...and that was within the last 2 weeks. Your statement that Maharaji didn't care about his work is the single most bogus thing you've yet uttered. I don't know ANYONE, who has been in the daunting position of trying to keep up with him as he goes about what he does, who wouldn't laugh at that. Perhaps you're just enjoying your new amen choir. You should go back and read your own words for some perspective. That mastery has nothing to do with after-dinner cognac, aircraft, money, Peter Frampton, plumbing fixtures or titles. It's there of its own accord and I've never seen any pretense or extra effort to MAKE it be there. Compared to what he's radiating, the sum total of what I read/feel from this page is like one mid-sized cow fart. I know Maharaji's had his 'wilder' times, especially in the past. So have I. So have you. So would, I'd imagine, most everybody reading this. So have both candidates for President and most people of the last few generations. Before you get too sanctimonius, ask yourself how spotless (conceptually, of course) you are. I do recall seeing the pictures of the London Latvian night only to notice that the people taking great delight in calling Maharaji a fat drinker were, in fact.....(drum roll) f-- d------s So why was Maharaji just in India, inspiring and helping those people, many of whom have been with him for much of their lives? To pick up some cash? To smoke some cigarettes? To have a couple of cognacs? To enjoy the lovely vacation-like atmosphere in Mr. Magoo-like Delhi? Or to listen to some more Frampton? Certainly not to foster an extraordinary experience for a poor guy or woman, sitting in a field in the middle of nowhere. This idea that it's all about $ and greed is so facile and one-dimensional that I'm surprised so many of you swallow it. The FIRST DAY Maharaji was in the West, he was toodling around in a Rolls-Royce. His predilection for the absolute finest stuff in all areas has never been hidden nor hypocritical. It's been right out in the open. It's only if you believe that what he's doing has no value that all of that starts to look fishy. He's always been able to easily separate the toys from his teaching. He clearly sees no dichotomy in it, though some people have. That's nothing new. It has no bearing on his validity as a Master or the reality of his teachings. Anyway, Sandy, forgive my off-ramps to Dettmers and others. I hope you can hear what I'm saying. A wise person once said something about bloopers and outtakes...try not to confuse them for the main event. By the way, would you have wanted to stay in that field for a few more days if you weren't having the time of your life? As for taking direction from jokes/asides....tummy-gym...friends-good...Wadi-not in college... résumé-up to you...how to finance college?-same dilemma for everybody....marry it-I agree with you, not funny. As of November 21, 2000, the actual experience of what Maharaji calls Knowledge, remains the sweetest, strongest, loveliest and most lasting internal experience I've had. It can't be remembered, only tasted. It also has nothing to do with snot. As of November 21, 2000, Maharaji remains, by far, the most amazing person I have ever encountered...and I have encountered quite a few amazing people, including a few of those who are acknowledged 'masters' and heroes in their various domains of expertise. With or without drinks, planes or Framptons. Good luck, Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:57:55 (GMT) From: earmite Email: craiggie@ukonline.co.uk To: Danny Subject: Not so fast Mr Happy Clapper... Message:

Greetings Señor Pass, (Hey, dig the Spanish phraseology. Way cool.) I hear your cry for help and I feel your anguish. No you don't. If you felt something re. SHP's cry for help, you'd address the points he raised. You feel no anguish, Danny; you feel smug, superior, as if you were speaking for God in Human Form. I won't presume to tell you what I think YOU should think or do (other than 'try not to screw it up with your lovely wife') and I'm sure whatever I say will be unpopular here. Are you really suggesting that what follows is NOT a plea for SHP to keep the faith? That doesn't matter one iota to me as I feel this place is a fairly obvious vortex where there is tremendous pressure to conform, agree and attack. You have been relentlessly and systematically abused and berated by the same people that are 'here for you' if and when you are swallowed into their belief system, (mis)perception and world view. (1) SHP has always given as good as he's got. Anyway, what's it to you who Sandy chooses to talk to? (2) 'Belief system'?!!! Are you out of your tiny mind, Danny? We have atheists, agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, Satanists and premies clocking in daily. When it comes to Maharaji, some say he's OK but not God. Others say he's crook, some say a fraud, some say a deluded fool and I say he's a joke. Hardly systematic or dogmatic. I'm merely gonna attempt to give you a bulletin from the present, not one of the myriad spots that any well-meaning person can get stuck in along the way. Popular examples of this syndrome include: Were the ashrams closed properly in 1982; what was it Maharaji said about vegetarianism when he was 12?; what did Randy Prouty tell M about Susan 20 years ago? (that, I happen to know the answer to...nothing, zilch, nada); was it technically a crime to listen to Peter Frampton whilst having and sharing one's after-dinner herb in 1977, particularly since Frampton-specific taste statutes weren't enacted 'til much later at the birth of Punk, well after Pete's album was the biggest in the world? (1) Ah yes, the Lord's thoughts on vegetarianism. OK, so he was a kid. His word was untrustworthy. So at what age did his teachings become credible? I remember the 'Dead Seeds Satsang' still appearing in DLM publications as late as 1979 when M was not only an adult, but in sole charge of his movement. Did he ever revise his instructions on food, or any other lifestyle factor? Say 'sorry I got that one wrong'? Moreover did he ever say 'I am not the Lord and I no longer require your blind faith, obedience and devotion?' (2) Having posted as you have re. Randy and Susan, I suggest you owe it to Susan, to Michael Dettmers and to all interested parties exactly what you do know. Moreover, your sense of honour - if you have one - should prompt to you to reveal your identity. (I have a feeling you are somebody we all know better by another name…?) 'Danny': anonymous testimony relating to serious sexual abuse cases is, at best, unhelpful; at worst, contemptible. (3) Yes, smoking cannabis/marijuana is 'technically' a crime - haven't you heard? Thus you are conceding Maharaji ('free man' of various cities) holds US drug laws in contempt. But let that pass, since the law is stupid… But it isn't a crime to drink yourself stupid five nights out of seven for years on end and subject your followers to tirades of humiliating verbal abuse. Is it? But I digress. (That was no digression.) I just spent 10 days in India with Maharaji, both up-close and in general, at the event. He was magnificent. He was pretty much exactly the same character he's always been , irrespective of title, era or belief template. I was strongly inspired and deeply moved by the timeless, placeless, wisdom and clarity that effortlessly poured out of him. So just how good was this timeless, placeless, wisdom and clarity? Would it have sounded as good spoken by anyone else? In my experience, no premie can even tell the difference between the teachings of their Master and somebody just pretending to be a Master. (Did you ever see our little online experiment which can demonstrate the effect? Like to try it?) The implication being, that if, for argument's sake, M were just some guy pretending to be a Master, acting out a role, you would be unable to tell the difference. So were the 100,000 or so people ( a group so large it was quite mind-bending to even look at) who were dancing, weeping, laughing and shining under the Indian moonlight. This wasn't the largely homogenous, whiny lil' bunch that you see on this page...there were long white-bearded grandpa/sages who have known the kid since he was 8, beautiful, soulful women in outrageous outfits...some incomprehensibly poor people as happy as clams...Oxford-educated Brahmin professors... Wow, some impressive statistics there, Danny, and all those shiny happy people, indeed. Looks like regular Billy Graham rally. And high-castes (double wow!!) with Oxford professorships, heh? This is interesting. Can you name me one, please? - Anyway, since when did intelligence or education provide immunity to the cult bug? There were an additional 32,000 people who received knowledge afterwards and the looks on their faces as they walked out would have silenced even the most Heller-ish of cynics. To put that in a little perspective, 32 would be an exaggeration of the number typically writing here. An enormous gamut of humanity, deeply and INDIVIDUALLY touched by this guy in the chair. Well that’s just stupid - and wrong on several counts. First, offensive to Jim to suggest he'd be remotely impressed by the sight of 30,000 goofy cultsters grinning like there's no tomorrow and no life outside of Prem Pal's cult. (More likely he'd vomit at the sight.) And you call the forum an 'Amen Corner'?!! The on/off number of exes posting here runs into three figures. Many more read without posting - making contact through email. The ex-premies' on-forum:off-forum ratio might even match the premies' on-forum:off-forum ratio. 90% of premies have quit, remember. As for whether your crowd were deeply and individually touched… Is this magic or metaphor? You have no way of knowing what others felt; you're projecting here. It might have been just another holy night out for the locals - a chance to let off steam or whatever. And most there, I suggest, have yet to discover the internet, Danny. How might that effect the size of their smiles? He was beautiful to me and I saw him connecting, one-on-one to all kinds of people. All speculation aside, you could see where he was just by looking at his face. The most centrally located person I've ever seen. He sits on a wealth of joy (not a mere joy of wealth), so huge and so tangible, that merely by showing up someplace, anyplace in the world, actually, his presence sparks off that same inexhaustible supply in those lucky enough to be there. Aw fuck it - you're a lost cause. I can see that now. Seeya.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 19:20:05 (GMT) From: Bimbo Email: None To: earmite Subject: Look who is the Happy Evil Clapper now! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 19:33:23 (GMT) From: earmite Email: None To: Bimbo Subject: 'Evil'? Please explain, Mr Doubtfire (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 13:35:41 (GMT) From: Bimb Email: None To: earmite Subject: 'Evil'? Please explain, Mr Doubtfire (nt) Message:

One might applaud something beautiful: That is the 'Happy Clapper.' Or one might applaud abuse, and stuff like that: 'That is the 'Happy Evil Clapper'

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 16:09:09 (GMT) From: windflower Email: windflower@gurumaharajisucks.org To: Danny Subject: Danny boy Message:

You forgot he's merely a philandering, pilfering, petty watch thief.... In the beginning were the trust funds, jewelry, assets... and the trust funds, jewelry, assets became rawats god - maya. toodles, windflower

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 15:37:25 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Danny Subject: Another reply to Danny Message:

Danny, I want to reply to your post in more detail, but it is Thanksgiving Day and I have family things happening very soon. Stay tuned because I have some things to say to you about how you responded to me and what you said. If this thread rolls over, I will still respond. Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 20:08:55 (GMT) From: Danny Email: None To: shp Subject: Another reply to Danny Message:

Hi Sandy, No rush. Read it again another time if you'd like... or fuhgeddaboudit. It just poured out after I read yours. Either way, have a lovely Thanksgiving. I've just been told I'm a lost cause which, I've gotta say considering the vibe of the source, sounds like a compliment. I don't post very often, as you know, and I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by the bared, dripping fangs greeting me. Some folks have a far easier time dishing out sarcastic humor than receiving it. C'est la vie. Time to turn my attention to some real-life, far more pleasant matters. I'm hungry and about to go to a feast. Ahhhhh. Take care, Danny

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 11:11:59 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Danny Subject: Blimey Danny Message:

You sound normal. I could have almost forgotten you were in a an mouldy-old-rip-off guru cult, leftover from the 60s, with a fucked up teacher and a deep knowledge of snot and falling wax. Good luck on your journey back to humanity- I hope you make it before you die. Anth, fangs dripping, sarcasm exuding, the lost cause of lost causes- but at least I got out the cult Danny. (Feel the vibe, feel the vibe.)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:41:05 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Danny Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

Danny - You are entitled to your own opinions about Maharaji. However, you seem unable to make posts without trashing this forum in general or forum participants in particular. Yeah, you do it in a 'funny' way, but that just makes you look like you think you're superior to the other people who post here. I am guessing that you probably think you ARE superior. I'm also guessing that you do not like people here making generalizations about premies - but do you understand that your generalizations about ex-premies are just as offensive? I am not sure that you understand how offensive this particular statement is: what did Randy Prouty tell M about Susan 20 years ago? (that, I happen to know the answer to...nothing, zilch, nada) It's offensive to Randy himself, who you say is 'demonized' here (do you realize what you yourself are saying about his character?), to Susan, who has NOT demonized Randy, and who has constantly been questioned as to her own integrity, and it's basically offensive to anyone who has heard about the sexual abuse by Jagdeo. Furthermore, it appears from your posts below that you don't really 'know the answer' - you are just making assumptions. In this and in other posts, you've minimized and ridiculed a lot of issues that are important to people who post here. Maybe you're 'above it all' - if so, good for you. But I'm not 'above it all', and I take offense to your jokes about things that I feel are serious problems.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 13:44:35 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Danny Subject: Reply to Danny Message:

Danny, I just woke up this Thanksgiving Day and came to this thread to see that many more people have posted here. I just read your post. Thank you for the time and energy you spent to tell me your perspective. I am in the strange position of seeing both sides and feeling both sides very intensely. That is all I can say right now. Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:03:35 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: shp Subject: Shppie! Good morning Message:

Have a coffee, go for a walk and forget about it for a while. Best wishes, Salam

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:40:19 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Salam Subject: Salami! Good morning! Message:

Happy Thanksgiving, no baloney.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:45:09 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Danny Subject: The Plain Truth About Cow Farts Message:

The cow being extremely sacred in India, comparing our talk to a 'mid-sized cow fart' can only been taken as a complement of the hightest degree coming from an Indian such as yourself. If methane were India's leading fuel source, being compared to a cow-fart would be somewhat analogous to being compared to a 'K-car'. It's a bit insulting, I'd rather be compared to a Cadillac, but, hey, at least a K-car's North American and they do make mid-sized Cadillacs now, don't they? Steve the not-so-fond-of-Indian-culture

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:26:32 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Danny Subject: God, man - will you just LISTEN to yourself..?!! Message:

Danny, you speak with a cultivated mind… (click down a few lines...) Or try this… I just spent 10 days in [faraway country] with the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, both up-close and in general, at the event. He was magnificent. Moon was pretty much exactly the same character he's always been , irrespective of title, era or belief template. I was strongly inspired and deeply moved by the timeless, placeless, wisdom and clarity that effortlessly poured out of him. So were the 100,000 or so people ( a group so large it was quite mind-bending to even look at) who were dancing, weeping, laughing and shining under the moonlight. This wasn't the largely homogenous, whiny lil' bunch that you see on this page...there were long white-bearded grandpa/sages who have known the kid since he was 8, beautiful, soulful women in outrageous outfits...some incomprehensibly poor people as happy as clams...Oxford-educated professors... There were an additional 32,000 people who became devotees of Krishna afterwards and the looks on their faces as they walked out would have silenced even the most Heller-ish of cynics. To put that in a little perspective, 32 would be an exaggeration of the number typically writing here. An enormous gamut of humanity, deeply and INDIVIDUALLY touched by Sai Baba in the chair. Rajneesh was beautiful to me and I saw him connecting, one-on-one to all kinds of people. All speculation aside, you could see where he was just by looking at his face. The most centrally located person I've ever seen. Ashokohara sits on a wealth of joy (not a mere joy of wealth), so huge and so tangible, that merely by showing up someplace, anyplace in the world, actually, his presence sparks off that same inexhaustible supply in those lucky enough to be there. Etc…

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:32:49 (GMT) From: Mark Appleman Email: apple4256@datastreet.com To: Nigel Subject: God, man - will you just LISTEN to yourself..?!! Message:

Nigel That was beautiful . You hit it right on the head. No one can deny that a belief system, followed with reverent gusto,is totally nondiscriminitory as to who plays THE PERSONALITY and can allow simultaneous converts to different belief systems ( 11,000 religions at last count, though Palm Beach has yet to certify ) all swear up and down that they have the ultimate thing, thru the ultimate personality. And it will deliver EMOTIONALLY. This explains why there is such a time lag (sometimes years or even decades), even after mentally people know something's wrong with the belief system they ascribe and get their emotional-spiritual 'juice' from, to emotionally disengage. At that disengagement point, the belief system is almost like tobacco, drugs, or some other physical addiction that really puts up quite the fight before leaving. It has taken on its own hold onto the persons being,independant of what, logic, need or intention brought the person into contact with the belief system in the first place. And there is definitely a withdrawl period. What you presented is I think, one of the cornerstones of a successful SAVIOR WORSHIP deprogram.That one's Savior is not the only guy in the game.And the game will work fine with or without them - or you, or any real Ultimate deliverence or truth. Because the TRUTH was delivered in the invective,in the pplanting of the belief system. The ONE person. The ONE true knowledge. That's the juggernaut each indivual soul must walk past on the way out of any of the systems you cited. Or remain in the emotional addiction. An apologist, a transparent CNN spin doctor, for a Master that never was.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 10:01:42 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Danny Subject: Danny, you're full of shit. Message:

Danny, You really are in a bad way. Your beliefs and aspirations are a complete joke. You’ve been in the cult so long you’ve lost all perspective on life. Your head is full of cult-shit. I feel sorry for you really. Your excuses for the behaviour of the Lard are quite pathetic. He’s a discredited has-been and it’s time you woke up to the fact. You’re exactly like a Moonie Danny. You’ve handed over your discrimination and judgment to someone who can’t even manage his own life- let alone anybody elses. It’s like you’re hanging from the ceiling in a cage- telling us dancers down below that we should squash into the cage with you- because there’s far much space in it than on the dance floor. Your words are made even more pathetic by the fact that you’re sincere. We’ve been there Danny. We know all about the “Lovliest and most lasting internal experience” ha fucking ha Danny. It only works if you believe. It’s like the Emporers new clothes. So- how’s it all going to end Danny. Premies are jumping ship right left and centre- and they all say the same thing after they get out the cult, “Thank God I’m out of that crock of shit.” Maybe you’ll be the last devotee- just you and your “magnificent” fucked-up Lard, hanging out in divine bliss- chatting together outside his mobile home as he swigs the cognac and tell you he could have been a contender if only all his devotees hadn't left him for a more fulfilling life watching tv and drinking beer. You’re in a cult Danny. Cult. Cult. Cult. Cult. Cult. It’s all over- get your head out your arse, go home and do something useful. Anth been there spoke the same crap as you, then came back to life.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 03:58:35 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Danny Subject: Hi, Are You Still Awake? Message:

I've noticed you haven't yet responded to anybody who has engaged you in dialogue. Isn't it polite when entering someone's home and starting a conversation to respond to the person you've been talking to? Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 03:18:15 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Danny Subject: A question and some comments Message:

Danny, I’m glad you had such a wonderful time in India. I have a question and a comment or two about some of your observations. 1.You say “What did Randy Prouty tell M about Susan 20 years ago? (that, I happen to know the answer to...nothing, zilch, nada).” Exactly how do you know the answer is “nothing, zilch, nada?” I ask because when I spoke with Marcia Leitner, the member of Élan Vital’s Board of Directors who was given the task of responding to Susan’s and my letters to Maharaji about the Jagdeo matter, she said that Randy Prouty and Judy Osborne “did not recall” whether or not they discussed it with Maharaji. Your definitive statement makes it abundantly clear that Randy did recall something, namely that he never spoke to Maharaji. If that is the case, why didn’t Marcia convey that fact to me? 2.You ask “Was it technically a crime to listen to Peter Frampton whilst having and sharing one's after-dinner herb in 1977, particularly since Frampton-specific taste statutes weren't enacted 'til much later at the birth of Punk, well after Pete's album was the biggest in the world?” The crime is not in “sharing one’s after-dinner herb” which, as I indicated, I enjoyed. The crime is in the blatant hypocrisy and double standards perpetuated by a so-called spiritual master who does not practice what he preaches. In this context, your admission that you “know Maharaji's had his 'wilder' times, especially in the past” is particularly galling. This hypocrisy was further compounded a few months ago by Élan Vital’s revisionist FAQ’s when they characterized Maharaji’s ashrams as havens from the drug culture. 3.You say that my “statement that Maharaji didn't care about his work is the single most bogus thing (I’ve) yet uttered” You continue: “I don't know ANYONE, who has been in the daunting position of trying to keep up with him as he goes about what he does, who wouldn't laugh at that.” No one needs to lecture me about the “daunting position of trying to keep up with him as he goes about what he does.” The question is, how much of what he does to keep throngs of people busy, have anything to do with spreading knowledge. I suggest precious little. There can be no doubt that he keeps lots of people busy catering to his and his family’s every need, managing and maintaining his expanding empire of residences, yachts, planes, etc., as well as organizing his various events. But if you did an audit of how he actually spends his time, I’m willing to bet that you would discover that he spends a very small percentage of his time and resources on the spreading of knowledge (I say this in comparison to other leaders who demonstrate a far more serious commitment to their missions in life). And a good portion of the resources that are allocated to Maharaji’s tours are spent on ensuring that his personal comfort is not compromised in the slightest. In other words, he wastes an incredible amount of money in the name of spreading knowledge. But you already know this. Your statement, “He's always been able to easily separate the toys from his teaching” says it all. What do you think of this? In the middle of a not very grueling five-city tour in the mid-eighties, he developed a slight cold. It was the middle of winter in the US North East and he had two more cities to visit. With one-hour notice, he instructed me to cancel the rest of the tour and to make arrangements to depart immediately for Antigua. This was not too difficult to arrange when you consider that he had a private jet waiting at the airport. A few hours later he was sun bathing in 80° + weather. Oh well, fuck the premies. They’ll always be there next time. 4.You state, “That mastery has nothing to do with after-dinner cognac, aircraft, money, Peter Frampton, plumbing fixtures or titles.” Danny, I have come to the conclusion that it has everything to do with those things. When you wake up and realize that your wonderful experience has nothing whatsoever to do with Maharaji, you will stop supporting his charade and begin walking the road of real freedom. Good luck to you. Michael

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:28:08 (GMT) From: Bimbo Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: A challenge to M. Dettmers Message:

You wrote: 'and begin walking the road of real freedom.' Could you please explain what you mean with that. Do you mean that now you have or are on the way to real freedom? And how do you define or more accurate experience 'freedom'? It is indeed very hard to see evidences of real freedom among the 'non cult of ex-premies'

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 17:25:51 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Bimbo Subject: A challenge to Bimbo Message:

In his post below to shp entitled 'Time to take the sunglasses off the frog' AJW (Anth) had the following to say about freedom which also captures my sentiments so I'll repost what he had to say. Hi Sandy, It’s great that you’re looking at all this stuff with an opening mind. It reminds me of the story about the frog in the pond and the frog in the ocean. You don’t actually realize how small the pond is until you get out of it. You don’t realise how bright the colours are until you take the sunglasses off. And if someone refuses to admit they’re wearing sunglasses (when it’s plain for all to see), they won’t know what everyone is talking about until they take them off. I think one of the big barriers to leaving the cult is the thought that somehow you are betraying the Master, and embracing “darkness”, or “ignorance”, or something- falling from the Holy Path so to speak. Maharaji has dropped enough hints over the years that if you leave him you’re in for big spiritual trouble. This is utter nonsense- illustrated by the dozens of people, like myself, that have left him and actually feel much better about themselves and about life, since they quit. And believe it or not Sandy, this is what is waiting around the corner for you- an improvement in the quality of life. The World still spins on, and all the laws and rules of life continue to be valid. If there is a Creator- his or her existence is not affected by our lack of belief in cult values. If we want to be true to our selves, we should examine both sides of the picture carefully- and the only way you can examine the outside world is to take a tiny step- and take the sunglasses off the frog. What you’re going through right now is a lovely, completely natural process. Sit back and enjoy the ride to freedom. Anth the beatnik reptile

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:56:01 (GMT) From: Bimbo Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: You flunk Michael. I challenge again Message:

Both you and Anth flunked to say in your own words the experience in your life the description of the road to freedom being an ex-premie. Anths lame re-written tale about the frog doesn’t hit me very well. In fact it hits very bad. I entered Maharajis world and took off my glasses and found a pond with absolutely no end, no darkness, no boundaries, no beginning and no bottom. I have also felt the privilege to experience the total freedom, which happens when a person is so filled joy that every cell in his (my) body vibrated in bliss. So don’t bullshit me. Your title is 'a challenge for Bimbo' - What challenge? I did not see one. So I ask you again, please describe the feeling of freedom you can obtain by being an ex-premie. (With or without glasses)

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 13:35:13 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Bimbo Subject: Bimbo, you look really silly right now. Message:

Bimbo, You're a guest on this forum. It's not a forum for cult members- it's for people who are leaving the cult and readjusting to life outside Fatguruland. You come here asking us questions but refuse to answer them yourself. You come across like an arrogant interrogator. You won't answer our questions but you expect us to answer yours. Well Bimbo- why don't go away and think about what I asked you below, come back and answer me. If you just want to come here, mouth off and be rude to people, you should fuck off back to your sick little cult- stick your thumbs in your ears, shut your eyes and experience that wonderful peace within. Stop wasting your time here with us hopeless, hate filled, deperate losers- practice- go within- to 'that place' and feel 'that bliss' so precious in 'this life', all by 'his grace'. Ha fucking ha Bimbo. If you only knew how stupid you looked with that big bird standing on your head. Anth the Chatty.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 13:40:59 (GMT) From: Bimbo Email: None To: AJW Subject: Anth look who is silly right now. I answered Message:

you did not.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 03:24:08 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net To: whomever Subject: Freedom Message:

I'm not even going to address you by the name you use here, because its obviously just a mask you're hiding behind. Rather I would try to visualize the person behind the mask, the frightened premie. In the short time Ive been posting here Ive seen many many premies post under these silly names. Ive asked why, and a few exs have given some valid reasons for anonyimity, but for the most part I have to say that with persons like yourself I sense only fear. Fear that your peers who you think may be reading this will recognize your name and chastise you or worse, shun you, withold service opportunities from you etc. Tell me, what kind of freedom is that? What kind of effect do you expect your words to have when you cannot be seen to stand behind them? You ask what freedom there is in being an ex-premie? Let me share some of them with you. I'm free to say whatever I feel about maharaji under my own name. I've told him directly what I think about him and elan vital and signed my name to it. More than this though, I've taken my personal power and life direction back. I'm free to find my Creator in whichever way feels right to me, rather than following the doctrine of another. That is freedom. If I want to use the meditation techniques I learned in the knowledge session, I will do so as and when I choose without feeling obligated to bow and scrape before that man. If I prefer to experiment with a different form of meditation, I will do so. That is freedom. I can stand before Life with my arms outstretched and say 'I am part of this Creation and I need no intermediary'. That is freedom I can stand before you and talk to you man-to-man with no fear and nothing to hide. That is freedom. Tell me more of your freedom, but as you, not as that silly mask. best wishes Barry Shaw

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 12:20:23 (GMT) From: Bimbo Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Best wishes to you Barry Shaw. Message:

I think I have to disapoint you Barry. I am not afraid. I have written to Maharaji about my posting here. I have no desire to make a career in EV. I went to a theraphist and told her about what is going on here and about my relationship to my master(not mentioning his name). She advised me to stay with my belief. By the way, I consider myself to be very pragmatic. To me freedom is the sense of flying on the wings of love. Any time I will meet you face to face. I have nothing to fear and nothing to hide. Bimbo for a reason Ps- I discussed with my teraphist the reason for the hatred here at this pages. She suggested, (like also Roger e Drek has), the bottom line might be fear. I think Michael has done ex-premies a favour, in a different way than he thinks.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 08:04:34 (GMT) From: Steve M Email: None To: Bazza Subject: Freedom-well said Bazza ! nt Message:

gg

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:18:23 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Bimbo Subject: A challenge to Bimbo Message:

Hi Bimbo, A challenge for you. How about sharing your divine insight and wisdom, gained from years of following the perfect master and praticing the knowledge of all knowledges, and answering a couple of questions? If Maharaji called you up and said he had something special he really wanted you to do- is there anything you wouldn't do? Do you consider yourself a member of a cult? What are your three main criticisms of Maharaji? What's the difference between a Premie and a Moonie? No fudging now Bimbo- I don't want to hear answers like, 'I've never met a Moonie so I don't know.' You know what I'm talking about here. Looking forward to your response. Anth the Cadburys Fudge Bar

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:47:55 (GMT) From: Bimbo Email: None To: AJW Subject: A challenge to Anth Message:

Anth the Cadburys Fudge Bar (does that reflect the condition of your brain?) I find you ridiculous, and one day I will prove why to you personally. Then you will have something real to answer for. Re your lame questions, I will not waste my time to answer hypothetical questions, but I never wrote a blank checque and I never will. But sincerely,how do you define and experience the freedom you found being a member of the 'non cult of ex-premies'?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 23:57:50 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Bimbo Subject: Perfect Choice of Alias Message:

Bimbo...fits you like a glove! Silly person....and grouchy too.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 16:58:40 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Bimbo Subject: Bimbo are you and Bjorn one ? be honest NT Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 10:01:33 (GMT) From: Bimbo Email: None To: Hal Subject: Bimbo are you and Bjorn one ? be honest NT Message:

Bimbo and Bjorn are names. I am me.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 12:03:25 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Bimbo Subject: I guess if you are bjorn then... Message:

i can understand why you are reluctant to use the name after some of the flack you've taken. It does get a bit confusing though. I find it very hard to get honest straight answers from premies mostly. If you have confusion about Mha then why not discuss your true feelings more openly? If you are totally clear that everything's hunky dory for you then really this forum is not good for you. All the premies I know who are totally happy with Mha's cult wouldn't even come here as they're sure we have all just succumbed to some fatal doubt virus and they fear becoming infected too. Anyway , enjoy your life as best you know how to, Hal

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 12:54:34 (GMT) From: Bimbo Email: None To: Hal Subject: I am desperately seeking the truth, Hal (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 15:20:56 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Bimbo Subject: See the Bimbo premie dodge the questions Message:

Bimbo, You come here asking questions, but refuse to answer them yourself. You're a brainwashed Premie. Why don't you fuck off? Anth with plenty to answer for, but not to you bonehead.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 15:46:08 (GMT) From: Bimbo Email: None To: AJW Subject: See who is dodging the question, now? Message:

Anth, new question: Is it a part of the 'non-cult of ex-premies' culture to dodge real questions and accuse others for what they do themselves? Don't you yet understand how lame your questions are? (like what is the difference between an e-premie and a fungi) Who cares? To place the same questions once is funny, twice boring and after that it really becomes pathetic.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 09:49:02 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Bimbo Subject: Come on Bimbo- Answer the Questions Message:

or fuck off. Anth who loves to watch them squirm

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 12:49:09 (GMT) From: Bimbo Email: None To: AJW Subject: Here are answers to the Questions,Will you answer? Message:

Hi Anth who loves to watch them (me) squirm? Really? Are you Anth the Sadist? BTW I did not squirm, I actually find you questions silly. One question already answered. Here are the rest: 1. Q: Do I consider myself a member of a cult? A: I consider myself to be a member of the human race. 2. Q: What are your three main criticisms of Maharaji? A: According to this site; his drinking, his role in the Jagdeo case, and his wealth. I have a philosophy not to try to judge or criticise people if I never been in their shoes. 3. Q: What I think is the difference between a Premie and a Moonie. A: I suppose a premie admires Maharaji, a Moonie admires Rev. Moon. But what freedom do you obtain from being an ex-premie?

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 13:52:03 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Bimbo Subject: Bimbo, Bimbo, Bimbo (deep breath) Message:

Bimbo- Question 1. I didn't ask you if you considered yourself a member of the human race, I asked if you considered yourself a member of a cult. Try again. Question 2. I didn't ask you to chose three criticisms from the site, I asked what YOUR three main criticisms are. Try again. Question 3. Pathetic answer. 1 out of 10. I expected at least a few sentences. Now for the answer to your question, 'What freedom do I experience by being an Ex-premie?' By being an ex-premie you experience the freedom to think and act for yourself. You experience the freedom of living a life where you don't have to feed all your thoughts through the 'Guru Box' and plan your life around your wierd ideas of practising knowledge and being a devotee. You experience the freedom of trusting your own thought and judgement- rather than rely on the vague, contradictory ramblings of the out of touch, and quite confused master. You experience the freedom of not having to lie to yourself about how your hopes and aspirations of a life with the living lord have been trimmed down, and dashed. You experience the freedom of unloading years worth of stale hindu concepts. You experience the freedom of spending more time with your friends and family. You experience the freedom of learning how to love your fellow human beings again. You experience the joy of no longer kidding yourself. Will that do for now- or would you like some more? Anth who would definitely like more. By the way Bimbo- you say you don't judge anybody unless you've been in their shoes. You haven't worn the shoes of an Ex-premie yet, but you don't mind judging us. We, however, have worn the shoes of a premie- and our judgment is based on having experienced both sides of the coin.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 14:24:56 (GMT) From: Bimbo Email: None To: AJW Subject: Bimbo, Bimbo, Bimbo (deep breath) Message:

The answers I gave are mine. If you are not pleased with them, what can I do? I did not say I dont judge. I said I try not to judge. We have different perspectives of freedom. So what? I will address you in aother format re other issues.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 13:37:22 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Bimbo Subject: Round one Message:

Take a hike bimbo.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 13:40:11 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Salam Subject: Round Two : Caller #10 Message:

Caller #10: I've been listening to your program. What you are saying about the guru is really interesting. I've attended a few of the satsang meetings. To me it always seems ridiculous how the premies all seem to be cut out of the same mould. Why is that? Bob: It's not so much that they have been cut out of the same mould. It's that they have been re-moulded into the same mould. You'll find that there is a tremendous amount of diversity in the backgrounds of the members in the Divine Light Mission. Over a period of time, they are really re-programed into a whole new way of looking at things. I think one way to look at it is to view the Divine Light Mission as a sub-culture. It has its own perspective on reality. People are in fact finally assimilated into that sub-cultural group. That accounts for the similarity you see in them.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 05:55:18 (GMT) From: Bill B Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Thanks for trying to help these squeaky wheels..nt Message:

adfg

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 00:19:22 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net To: Danny Subject: Size IS important, or is it? Message:

Danny You place a great significance on the numbers of devotees sharing this experience with you in India. You also contrast this with the relatively small number of people on this humble little forum. Is it a case of 'all these people can't be wrong?' Very risky line of reasoning on which to base your entire life, freedom, loyalties etc. Let me illustrate this a little. Here is a list of some of the major religions in the world today, along with their current estimated membership. (Source First Electronic Church of America) Roman Catholic Church, 980 million Hinduism, 648 million Islam, 840 million Buddhism, 307 million Judaism, 18 million Orthodox Eastern Church, 158 million Baptist Church, 31 million Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), 9.5 million Sikh, 20 million To put this in a little perspective, your '100,000 or so people .... who were dancing, weeping, laughing and shining under the Indian moonlight' represent approximately 1.5% of the SMALLEST of these religions, and a paltry 0.01% of the largest. So your arguement of there being so few of 'us' and so many of 'you' as a way of proving you are in the right is pretty stupid dont you think?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:55:07 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Bazza Subject: To Dan and Bazza about size of group Message:

Size of group means absolutely nothing, but that is only my opinion and what I see as the real truth of the matter. The 32 vs. the 100,000's weighs little on my scale, having been raised Jewish. Jews were always in a vast minority and seemed to come out on top when it was God's will that they did, as in the case of Moses vs Pharoh, just to mention one well-known case. And I don't think it was just a myth or legend either. If His eye is truly on the sparrow, then you don't need a flock of them to get his attention, do ya? If not a leaf falls without His notice, you don't need a forest, do ya? The true Creator hears the sincere cry from one heart of one of his creatures and will cross the Universe to answer that cry, using all the atoms and molecules and creatures at His disposal to respond so that the needy heart knows it is the real answer it is feeling. Fairy tales? I think not.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 03:46:36 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: None To: shp Subject: Numbers Message:

Hello shp I was using the example of numbers to counter what Isaw as Danny's argument about there being 100,000 there etc etc. I've experienced myself many times that the reinforcement of a mass of awestruck premies can be a powerful influence. Its called peer pressure and tends to take on an energy of its own. In my work as a videographer I have been present at many Evangelical church functions, ranging in size from 1000 to 12,000 and witnessed mass emotions, rapture and frenzy in equal measure to any premeie festival. Charismatic preachers like Benny Hinn and others weild extraordinary power and influence over their congregation, easily equal in measure to maharaji. Ive been there and felt it, witnessed it, so I know it to be true. Try telling any one of those blissed out Christians that they are wrong, that maharaji is the real saviour and his Knowledge is the only way. The bottom line for me shp is this. I felt a connection with my Creator long before I got into k., and I have always felt that closeness in my heart. The msitake I made was to attribute those feeling to maharaji as being some sort of divine intermediary, sent by the grace of the Creator to guide me. I was wrong, simply. Since I made the decision to renounce my premieship, the connection and love i felt from my Creator has grown steadily every day. New ways to explore that are opening up before me, and some of the old ways I am rediscovering. It is a beautiful time for me, free of the artificial restriction imposed by that man and a handful of yoga techniques. You have to make your own choice in this, but therein lies the essence of what I'm trying to say. maharaji basically gives you 2 choices - in or out, but that statement is so loaded with the implication that out means 'out of the one and only true path' that we stay because of fear. Sandy that is perhaps the greatest injustice this man has done to the premies - creating a sense of fear and exclusiveness in order to deny them the freedom to explore their own spirituality outside of the realm of knowledge. Take back your freedom, rediscover your Creator in your OWN way and rejoice in it. luv Bazza (Barry Shaw)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 06:35:32 (GMT) From: Danny Email: None To: Bazza, Michael etc. Subject: Quick responses Message:

Hi folks, Just a few quick responses as it's family time and I was basically writing to Sanford. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. Bazza wrote, 'You place a great significance on the numbers of devotees sharing this experience with you in India. You also contrast this with the relatively small number of people on this humble little forum.' Hi Bazza. No, the central point I was making was the quality of experience of those individuals, myself included. Yes, there were tons of people and it's fair to mention that their (and my own) experience of Maharaji and knowledge are completely different than what's represented here. That fact that there are so many with a different view is just that, a fact. Perspective ain't a bad thing to work on, regardless of your view on something. Unless I misread 'Anything and Everything about Maharaji, etc. Speaking of numbers, Steve Quint said, '100,000 represents a 90% decline in attendance.' And you think Elan Vital's math is suspect. Gerry says, 'In reference to Rawat's stage presence and 'charisma' danny the multi-decade cult victim asks: 'Who else here has that ability? How about Jim Jones? The 'reverend' Moon? Adolf Hitler? Clinton for that matter?' Hi Gerry. I wasn't aware Jones, Moon, Hitler or Clinton were scanning this site. I also wasn't aware that Maharaji had invaded Poland, ordered his followers to kill themselves, been financed by munitions and sent to jail or showed any interest in Miss Arkansas Poultry Queens. Seems like his most violent activity has been spraying colored water on people, while cautioning all little kids and vulnerable types to stay out of the direct stream of the water. Ahhhh, I'm a victim! Ooooh, scary!!! Sorry, Marianne. Your one-note Jim Jones comparisons don't ring true at all. He seemed more like Robert Evans on strychnine. Gerry also said, 'We know from first hand witnesses that Rawat is a mean, arrogant, spoiled, delusional, petty little tyrant.' Well, I'm a first-hand witness also. My observations don't count because I don't tow your party line or arrive at the same conclusions? In the sentence above, the only word I'd agree with, based on years of first-hand observation and interaction, is 'little.' And that depends on the angle and other factors. Michael Dettmers asked,'Exactly how do you know the answer is “nothing, zilch, nada?” Hi Michael. Because I know Randy. And I doubt he'd come here and say anything since people have demonized him without ever asking him anything. I also knew Judy a bit and have zero reason to believe that she'd do ANYTHING to endanger children, especially since her life's work is as a midwife. I was horrified when I heard this stuff about Jagdeo. I asked. Michael also said, 'your admission that you “know Maharaji's had his 'wilder' times, especially in the past” is particularly galling.' Why's that? Would you like to deny his humanity as well as his mastery? As I said, so did I and so did you. Why do you presume to judge one who has given so much to so many? Is it possible that you don't remember all the things you learned and felt from/with him? Could this be a Mozart & Salieri situation? Michael also said, 'This hypocrisy was further compounded a few months ago by Élan Vital’s revisionist FAQ’s when they characterized Maharaji’s ashrams as havens from the drug culture.' They were indeed. That's the interesting part, Mike. The ashrams were havens from the drug culture. Life is tricky sometimes. Boy, that FAQ must have really shot a stick up your butt if it's caused you to forget so much other stuff. As far as your story of cancelling 2 events when he was sick, let me ask you this... How many events/festivals/programs has Maharaji missed, cancelled or been late for in the last 30 years? Highly selective memory there, Mr. D. Finally, Michael quoted me saying. “That mastery has nothing to do with after-dinner cognac, aircraft, money, Peter Frampton, plumbing fixtures or titles.” Danny, I have come to the conclusion that it has everything to do with those things.' We've come to different conclusions. and MD says, 'When you wake up and realize that your wonderful experience has nothing whatsoever to do with Maharaji, you will stop supporting his charade and begin walking the road of real freedom.' Nothing whatsoever to do with Maharaji... other than his introducing it to me, teaching it to me, relentlessly reminding me of it and still inspiring me to go further, almost 30 years down the road. And all those people of every conceivable background and situation...nothing to do with Maharaji? All a giant hallucination/coincidence? I'd say what you've described has just about nothing to do with Maharaji. You certainly haven't captured his essence or personality at all. Happy Thanksgiving and good luck to you, too. Danny

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 07:42:20 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Danny Subject: Danny Message:

I do not know if you have read everything I have posted about Jagdeo, but I hope if you haven't you will. Everything I have said about what happened is the absolute truth. I knew Randy fairly well back then. I do not know him at all now. But you are mistaken in your assumption that no one has contacted him. Until last year, I believed Randy was one of the more decent people I met in the cult. In fact, I went way out of my way to try NOT to demonize him as he was someone I felt was always very kind to me. He was, when I told him about Jagdeo, very supportive and kind. Randy was not a stranger to me, he used to help me with my homework, and he came to my home and convinced my mom to let me join the ashram at 16. I just cannot buy that he 'forgot' what I told him. I did not want to put Randy or Judy in the position of having to 'choose' between telling the truth about this, and their loyalty to Mr. Rawat. I believe that at the time both Randy and Judy did nothing but try to do their best to do what was right about what I told them. I chose to tell Judy for precisely the reasons you think it is impossible she knew or is lying, because she was a midwife and I felt she would understand. I think she did understand. I think she probably remembers too. It sure looks to me like they did tell Rawat. There really is no other explanation for what Judy said to me that ' he already knew and was glad it was not a new incident' You are so off base with thinking that any part of my goal is to make either of them look bad. I agonized over the fact that to tell the story I had to drag them into it. They helped me back then. And it is coming back to haunt them. 'No good deed shall go unpunished'. But it isn't MY fault for telling the truth. Really, my guess is that the reason Randy and Judy do not 'remember' is that Rawat has asked them not to or implied they should not. I hope there is someone out there reading this that they told about Jagdeo years ago. Now would be a good time to speak up. I would bet that there are more people who can attest to what I am saying. Danny, what have said is the truth and I really resent your implying otherwise.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 11:20:17 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Danny Subject: Further comments Message:

Danny, Thanks for taking the time to respond but you seem to have misunderstood my question and my comments so I’ll try again. I asked, 'Exactly how do you know the answer is “nothing, zilch, nada?” and you responded, “Because I know Randy…. (and) I asked. ”I presume you mean that you asked Randy. Why then the discrepancy between your report and Marcia Leitner’s? She assured me that she had spoken with Randy as well". You ask if I “would you like to deny his (Maharaji’s) humanity as well as his mastery” because I took exception to your statement that “Maharaji's had his 'wilder' times, especially in the past.” I don’t deny Maharaji’s humanity, he does. And I have provided ample evidence that he does not practice what he preaches and that kind of behavior is inexcusable on one who claims to be a perfect master. You continue by wondering if my criticism of Maharaji “could be a Mozart & Salieri situation?” Mozart and Salieri were both well known and honored musicians in their time. That Mozart was the more inspired and accomplished of the two cannot be denied. The claim by some that Salieri was, therefore, jealous of Mozart is ungrounded speculation, although it makes for good theater. However, I don’t ever recall making any claims that I was or am a perfect master or a spiritual teacher. Hence, I fail to grasp your analogy. You unabashedly endorse Élan Vital’s (and therefore Maharaji’s) claim that “the ashrams were havens from the drug culture.” How can you reconcile the hypocrisy that Maharaji and his x-rated staff indulged in pot smoking during the time that the ashrams were at their height? And I’m sorry Danny but your comment that “life is tricky sometimes” doesn’t answer the question. You suggest that my report of “Maharaji canceling 2 events when he was sick (I said ‘slight cold’)” is a case of “highly selective memory” and you ask “How many events/festivals/programs has Maharaji missed, cancelled or been late for in the last 30 years?” Answer: There have been several. But the real question I address is how many events could he have done during those 30 years if he were really interested in fulfilling his declared mission. I suggested that his alcoholism has affected his ability to take his mission seriously. That is why I came to the conclusion that his “after-dinner cognac, aircraft, money, Peter Frampton, plumbing fixtures and titles” became the point of his deceptive game. Of course, Danny, you are free to disagree with my interpretation of the facts I have reported about Maharaji on the Forum. But I find your willingness to dismiss the facts as having “just about nothing to do with Maharaji” to be very consistent with well-documented cult-like behavior. Something for you to think about over Thanksgiving. Michael

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 16:52:51 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Danny Subject: You flunk, Danny Message:

You failed to understand my comparison of Rawat with Moon, Jones, Clinton and even Hitler. The point was that charisma, in and of itself, is not a measure of a man's character or the goodness of his works.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 07:22:05 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Danny Subject: Danny you forgot to answer my question. Message:

Was jagdeo there? Oh yes and did prempal unzip the sky and shout at those who didn't have k or did he make them float 3 feet above the ground?(as he said he could)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 08:09:37 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Jethro Subject: There's A Proper Word For Everything Message:

The term weasel comes to mind. That's the language pp knows and obviously now Danny does too. Steve

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 08:38:32 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: There's A Proper Word For Everything Message:

There don't seem to be many premies around here at present. Could it be that some of them are actually beginning to think(i.e use their minds)?...........naaaa they must be in deep meditation. It's good that Danny is here so that people new to this site can see the premie mindset.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 12:29:25 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Jethro Subject: There's A Proper Explanation For Everything Message:

I got depressed about the silence around here and went to sleep for four hours. I guess you're right, the exes in this neighbourhood are afraid to meditate for less than one hour every night for fear of eternal damnation or worse. Next time I'll know. Steve P.S. My last dream before waking was about being pilot of a commercial jumbo jet and landing it perfectly and extremely smoothly. Great feeling.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 04:50:25 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: There's A Proper Explanation For Everything Message:

your last dream before waking was about piloting an airplane? Mine was about finding a decent Indian grocery store in Panamá and trying to find some good chutneys and saag.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 06:43:56 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Danny Subject: Hello Bud Message:

Hey bud, I've been a Chartered Accountant - don't tell me about basic math. The 1,000,000 figure comes from Divine Light Mission literature. A 900,000 decline is 90% of 1,000,000. What school did you go to? Probably an Indian one, judging by your posts. You should probably find a Hindi bulletin board to haunt. Dhanyavad.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 23:31:46 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Danny Subject: How come you always show up ....... Message:

........ when someone jumps ship. & with a reply carefully crafted to the content of said jumping. You are certainly a piece of work. Don't forget that Radovan Karadic is also a pschologist. Try & do something about your supercilious farewell line though. YOU'RE THE ONE ON THE FUCKING TITANIC.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 23:02:17 (GMT) From: gerry Email: gerry To: Danny Subject: danny, ever the good little cult soldier Message:

Well that was a laughable attempt in cult apologia and I would like to comment on a few points: In reference to Rawat's stage presence and 'charisma' danny the multi-decade cult victim asks: Who else here has that ability? How about Jim Jones? The 'reverend' Moon? Adolf Hitler? Clinton for that matter? Words, words, words. Are they the true measure of a man? Or is that true measure how he relates to and treats the people around him? We know from first hand witnesses that Rawat is a mean, arrogant, spoiled, delusional, petty little tyrant. And probably a drunk, a dope head and philanderer. Just because he has a snake charmer's ability to dazzle a crowd of willing believers does not make him a master of anything other than deceit. And here's a quiz noone here should flunk: So why was Maharaji just in India, inspiring and helping those people, many of whom have been with him for much of their lives? To pick up some cash? To smoke some cigarettes? To have a couple of cognacs? To enjoy the lovely vacation-like atmosphere in Mr. Magoo-like Delhi? Or to listen to some more Frampton?   The obvious answer is (a) to pick up some cash. The less obvious answer, but equally important is to suck off the energies of other people in his inimitable and despicable way. The guy's a spiritual vampire of the first order. This idea that it's all about $ and greed is so facile and one-dimensional that I'm surprised so many of you swallow it. The FIRST DAY Maharaji was in the West, he was toodling around in a Rolls-Royce. His predilection for the absolute finest stuff in all areas has never been hidden nor hypocritical. It's been right out in the open. It's only if you believe that what he's doing has no value that all of that starts to look fishy. He's always been able to easily separate the toys from his teaching. He clearly sees no dichotomy in it, though some people have. That's nothing new. It has no bearing on his validity as a Master or the reality of his teachings.   What danny calls 'facile' I'd call 'obvious.' Unless of course one is totally immersed in a bhakti cult like rawat's. As far as rawat's conspicuous consumption being 'right out in the open' did the great unwashed masses of premies know about his new 7 million dollar yatch or his recent aquisition of a Gulfstream V? No is the correct answer to that one, danny boy.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 22:49:24 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Danny Subject: Some Comments Message:

Supposedly m used to attract up to 1,000,000 people in India, which in itself is a smaller proportion of the entire population than Woodstock was to the U.S. population. 100,000 represents a 90% decline in attendance. It is extremely evident to me and many others that m has failed utterly and miserably in the west. How he's doing in India is something I don't know about and don't particularly care much about. I have many friends of Indian origin and have come to realize that the cultures are so different India might as well be considered a different planet. I'm glad you're enjoying your life. Compared to what he's radiating, the sum total of what I read/feel from this page is like one mid-sized cow fart. I've received more enjoyment from one fairly typical message posted here that from an average eight hours of watching m's videos. Your report only confirms what I and others have said in that m should return to India where he is obviously appreciated and fits into the cultual milieu. China is also a vast untapped resource of potential devotees. Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 22:37:34 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Danny Subject: Danny-why do you post here? Message:

Danny- I have 2 general questions for you...would you care to respond? 1)-why do you post here? Exactly why? I don't think anyone cares to hear your versions of events...sometimes I think you post just to hear yourself talk, and further bolster you faith in m.... 2)-are you proud of m's 'shadow' life? Doesn't it seem quite hypocritical? Doesn't the drinking,drugs and affairs seem a little strange, since he's permanently in god-consciousness? Do you think that new premies and aspirants should know about m's secret life and past treatment of premies? I think you're kind of stuck here-if you tell them, they probably will leave...if you don't tell them, one day they'll find out about it, and then hate you and m even more, as they leave... Do you find anything peculiar about m's 'revisionist history'? (Many exes have said that what pushed them over the edge, was not stuff from the EPO site, but the stuff from the ELK site, which they know from their own experience, to be lies...) Just wondering....

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 21:57:13 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Danny Subject: you know the answer? Message:

what did Randy Prouty tell M about Susan 20 years ago? (that, I happen to know the answer to...nothing, zilch, nada would you please elaborate?

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 22:14:47 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Susan Subject: Yeah, Danny, we're interested! Message:

Yeah, what do you know about Randy Prouty? And how do you know it? We're interested. By the way, Randy's new website and email address is provided in a thread just below, and maybe he can verify for us your information! Thanks for the Hans Jayanti story. Was there darshan? 'Formal darshan', I mean. If so, how much did your bliss increase that day? If not, how disappointed were you? And hey, did you hear the bad news about Sai Baba? Now that everybody knows he has been sexually abusing 18 year old boys for 30 years, maybe his millions and millions of followers will move over to the real Master, Maharaji! What do you think?

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 21:20:23 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Danny Subject: Glad you're having such a wonderful Message:

experience because that's all that matters isn't it? Oh by the way, was Jagdeo there?

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 14:12:27 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: shp Subject: Time to take the sunglasses off the frog Message:

Hi Sandy, It’s great that you’re looking at all this stuff with an opening mind. It reminds me of the story about the frog in the pond and the frog in the ocean. You don’t actually realise how small the pond is until you get out of it. You don’t realise how bright the colours are until you take the sunglasses off. And if someone refuses to admit they’re wearing sunglasses (when it’s plain for all to see), they won’t know what everyone is talking about until they take them off. I think one of the big barriers to leaving the cult is the thought that somehow you are betraying the Master, and embracing “darkness”, or “ignorance”, or something- falling from the Holy Path so to speak. Maharaji has dropped enough hints over the years that if you leave him you’re in for big spiritual trouble. This is utter nonsense- illustrated by the dozens of people, like myself, that have left him and actually feel much better about themselves and about life, since they quit. And believe it or not Sandy, this is what is waiting around the corner for you- an improvement in the quality of life. The World still spins on, and all the laws and rules of life continue to be valid. If there is a Creator- his or her existence is not affected by our lack of belief in cult values. If we want to be true to our selves, we should examine both sides of the picture carefully- and the only way you can examine the outside world is to take a tiny step- and take the sunglasses off the frog. What you’re going through right now is a lovely, completely natural process. Sit back and enjoy the ride to freedom. Anth the beatnik reptile

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 16:05:22 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: AJW Subject: Time to take the sunglasses off the frog Message:

ribit

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 14:19:52 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: AJW Subject: Time to take the sunglasses off the frog Message:

I think one of the big barriers to leaving the cult is the thought that somehow you are betraying the Master, and embracing “darkness”, or “ignorance”, or something- falling from the Holy Path so to speak. Maharaji has dropped enough hints over the years that if you leave him you’re in for big spiritual trouble. Dear Anth the beatnik reptile: Fear of eternal damnation is horrible. Did you experience it in a strong way and, if so, how did you overcome it? Thanks, Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 15:26:14 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Open up'a your chip pan to the universe of love Message:

Hi Steve, It just took time. I remember the first time I posted (anonymously) on the forum- I had butterflies in my stomach, and was very nervous. I thought that somehow 'they' would know it was me and something awful might happen. (I could never imagine what.) And then I thought the regular posters would ridicule me and slag me off- but they didn't. Then I wrote my journey and started using my real name, and nothing happened. I'd hardly meditated for ages before- which helped- because it was obvious the only effect meditating had had was depriving me of sleep. The quality of life didn't go down at all after I stopped. Over the two years or so I've been posting, I still find little barriers inside me. It was ages before I called Maharaji anything like 'The Lard of the Universe'. (Open upa your chip pan to the Universe of Love). The lovely thing about leaving the cult and getting your head back into shape is that it seems to be a natural process- like learning to talk. You probably notice that the changes in your feelings about things in life are still going on. The truth is Steve, the Premies are much more scared of us than we are of them. Most are scared to even look at the forum. None of them like to discuss their belief system with an Ex- because it's too confronting for them to see they're stuck in a cult- and are not the blessed disciple of the living perfect master like they thought. Maybe one of my biggest fears was somehow blowing my relationship with Creator. But since I quit- I feel much better about that too. In fact- if there is such a thing as a Creator- I think She must be very pleased that we're all getting back on the main road of life- after being stuck up the Lards dead end for god knows how long. Anth- still unravelling, but not scared any more.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 02:57:25 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: shp Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

Hey shp SOunds like you're finally giving those doubts a chance to breathe. I don't know why you're so hung up on prophecies and such. Just take a look at M's teachings. They don't seem particularly spiritual or holy to me. There's a real disconnect there between what you've been conditioned to think M is, and his teachings and how they have affected your life. Actually I think the fact that you are conflicted is good. It's a step in the right direction, IMO. Keep up the good work.....every step a little closer to FREEDOM. Let go of M, for God's sake! It's a fraking waste of time. If you want God so much open just follow God. WHo needs M? You'll be okay--just keep pushing yourself through this, so it for your sake and your children.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 02:59:29 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: shp Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

meant to say 'freaking waste of time' and 'do it for your sake and your children's' Sheesh--this is what comes of doing everything too fast these days Seriously, shp you will be okay, okay? You okay?

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 03:36:00 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Helen Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

Helen, I'm OK. Thanks for asking.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:50:08 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: shp Subject: Sorry I tried to take the piss in previous weeks.. Message:

...... but hell , all's fair in love & war. Your situation is very similar to my own , apart from the fact that I married an atheist who didn't mind me being a premie as long as I didn't bang on about it. Giving other people advice about their private lives isn't something that's generally useful , but...gradually phase out Rawat as a subject of conversation , & avoid arguements on the subject even though you feel yourself in the right. Do a few things that she wants you to do even though you don't. Try a little light sabotage , if appropriate. A powerful magnet works wonders on those sattelite cards. Lie , cheat & steal if you have to , but don't let that fucker break up your family the way he's broken up your dreams. Plenty of people lied ,cheated ,& stole to set the bastard up in the 1st place , not that you'll get them to admit it. And why ?....'cause they loved him. So , apologies if this is stating the obvious. Don't forget....... all's fair. Keep well.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 22:49:50 (GMT) From: Bjørn Email: edwardse@online.no To: shp Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

Sanford Could you please send me your email address. I might contact you later. Take care Bjørn

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 05:58:36 (GMT) From: bill b Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: You dont only help Sanford with this post...nt Message:

hhgsdj

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 23:46:06 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Thank you for your time and your thoughtful words Message:

Michael, I just read your post and immediately understood exactly what you meant to say. But that is just my interpretation of what I read and not necessarily the truth. That's a joke....gotta keep it light in all this heaviness. The position you presented that other PAM's might pose about Maharaji having to stay high to be grounded, that's one I had not thought of. Now I have to think about that one too...thanks alot....! I am usually very clear and lucid about that which I focus on. This subject makes me feel awkward and unable to articulate, and I have always put it on the 'ineffable thing', you know. I am beginning to see that it's not the ineffableness, but the contradictory nature that makes it hard for me to express clearly about this. You have played a part in all this. I had a boss recently who was just like how you described Maharaji, high on something or else manic-depressive, totally abusive to his employees, thought his waste smelled better than ours, took credit for everything and responsibility for nothing...I was getting chest pains from him, but had to bide my time to change jobs and not lose income. It worked out. But I gotta tell ya, I felt like I was 'supposed' to be there in the beginning, you know the feeling....'there's SOMEBODY here I'm supposed to tell about Maharaji, so I will put up with all this shit out of devotion'....and that is probably how and why those closest to him stay as well. It's a loop of abuse, in both cases. Then he says that the Journey is the Destination. And we are suipposed to enjoy the journey, enjoy the abuse, be grateful for even the attention to be abused and the whole rap. If that is true and the journey sucks, then what does that say about the destination and the whole trip in general? All the time I have been going through this, I have had an abiding faith in the formless One, the Creator of us all, whoever and whatever that entails. You may not see this part as I do, but it has helped alot. So thank you for your well-formed thoughts, your proper grammer and punctuation and your calmness, vibrational neutrality and moral support in this highly charged polarized atmosphere which I have learned over time to understand and have compassion on. Sandy

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:00:34 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: shp Subject: well shit Message:

So thank you for your well-formed thoughts, your proper grammer and punctuation and your calmness, vibrational neutrality and moral support in this highly charged polarized atmosphere which I have learned over time to understand and have compassion on. thanks I think. selene of the improper emotional state and grammar.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 02:46:49 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Selene Subject: aw selene I still loves ya Message:

hey selene, no offense kiddo, we cool. it's just that Micheal's post read like a text or someting....he could write a book. just cause I complimented his presentation doesn't mean I don't appreciate all of them including yours.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 02:50:16 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: shp Subject: reads like a text allright Message:

Kinda like my Java progamming book. (A complement of course). Take care shp.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 01:52:59 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Selene Subject: Finally, Selene it was about you! Message:

Selene, you finally got one right. Yup, shp was referring to you there and no one else, including myself. Bwah ha ha ha ha! Good to see ya having some fun! Take care.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 02:46:15 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: are you sure? Message:

We may need a precount and a count and a recount. you take care too. Have a god holiday.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 04:24:37 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Selene Subject: I will have God Holiday as in Maharaji is my God Message:

If shp is turning in his faithful follower wings and hanging out down here with the riff-raff then I'm heading back to the cult. 'You say hello and I say good-bye' (from the Beatles somewhere)

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 02:47:18 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Selene Subject: aarrggghhhh1!! I mean GOOD holiday 2 o's sorry nt Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:26:39 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Selene Subject: TO shp: Decision, decision decision Message:

I am glad to see that you are still beating around the bush. You something, humans have something that is called mind. No it is not that mind that Rawat talks about. It is the thing in your head that allows you to collect information, analyze it then act upon the result. I think it is called critical thinking, and we name the action as DECISION. Now one can debate the issue as to whether what we see, hear, feel taste and touch can be true. This is a philosophical issue that has been going on for donkeys of years between science and religion. How we make our decision can be problematic, such as in your case, and because you can not get to a conclusion, the process keeps repeating itself over and over. As a human being, and perhaps more as a creator that has instinct, the most important trait that we have is the drive to survive. Thus eventually an auto mechanism will suddenly kick in and eliminate the conflict. It is the only way that the body as hole including mind, spirit, consciousness…etc can function. If the process carries one for too long, then the human program will fail and something drastic happens, such as committing suicide, becoming and alcoholic, a homeless person…etc. So my man, I am not going to say to you do this instead of that, because it appears that this is what you want. But I will say to you that this is a chess game. All the information that is need on both camps is laid down on the table; the game has to end in one way or another. I also want to bring your attention that you have already been to one side and know everything that is need. Now to be truthful about truth, I only think that it is in order that you explore the other side of the board. This way you will have what you want and you will be able to make that DECISION yourself. Salam the tormentor

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:01:04 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: shp Subject: Stuff I believed.. help is on the way Message:

shp you wrote: 'He's still a child who came from east to west to spread the Knowledge of God. This one sentence covers 3 prophecies given by Christ. A child would lead, he would come from east to west, and spread the Knowledge of God to the whole world. Maybe all the drunk-stoned-cigarettes-x-ratedness-abuse-money-sick mahatmas-yacht-jet-personal shit doesn't matter in the big picture. Maybe all that is going to burn off and he will still be the revealer of Knowledge.' shp: the origins of the scripture fulfillment schtick = Divine Light Mission itself fed that stuff to us way back in the early 70's in tons of propaganda; that's where the indoctrination began. M.'s satsang, costumes, and the propaganda machine cranked out all sorts of the living Lord of the Universe jargon and the one Perfect Master claims, throne/crown imagery, posed studio photos with effects, rites -- ironic, don't you think? 'Rites, rituals will never give you knowledge of the soul' [from arti] M. always preached that you don't need scriptures, but DLM used Hindu and Christian scriptures (and others) to create this self-serving Aquarian messiah mythos about m. The imagery, trappings, cult reinforcement, cultspeak, and cult worship was very powerful and effected thousands of people emotionally (it's been watered down for unknowing newcomers since the mid-80s, wink). M. also mixed in the Krishna imagery/concept/outfit, the role of a great king worthy of all our devotion, money and possessions - give him 'the reins of our lives'. Hand over the reins of your life to Guru Maharaj ji! Now, doesn't that sound a bit extreme, shp, at this point? You can send him a check toward his next yacht - propagate the mission! So, the whole mythos has been fed by m's self-serving propaganda machine. shp, the conscious universal energy is itself the savior and revealer of light -- and the sustainer of life. If you would, then give your devotion to that energy (if you like: God), and just live in peace and friendship with other human beings and our environment. If you like to meditate, then just do it. After all, it's your energy inside, your experience (whatever that is) -- not his, or anyone else's. I've seen inner light since I was a kid. Whose light is that within you, shp? It ain't m. It's you, yours, your own source. Fear not, for I bring you great tidings of joy. Slavery is dead, wisdom triumphs over superstitution, and you can put those monthly donations in a bank account, exercise for health, enjoy your work, love your wife and family, have some friends, meditate if you want to (and however you want to), and trust in your own intuition and higher power. To thine own self be true... Peace, P.S. Tip: Now, Don't try and debate your premie friends. Just show 'em where to look on the internet for the details (or email them the files). Then, leave them alone on the subject, unless they want to talk about it. Similarly, don't let your own boundaries get trampled on by people -- for example, you might not want to hear about the video program last night. [change the subject] Friends simply have to respect friends, that's all. Otherwise, relationships have problems and erode. Keep a friendly tone, without giving an ounce of yourself away on principle. If your wife is a premie, just love her - she's your wife. Just don't let her lay a big trip on you about m. or kn., either. Maybe she'll come around to really looking at the whole trip, too. You'd be surprised what happens... But it's hard when people are immersed to the point where they've invested a chunk of their lives and surrendered their MINDS to the dogma. dogma = reverse of 'amgod'! Thinking used to be the great heresy. 'You know, I was just thinking about all this devotion and money to Maharaji, man. Don't you think it could be perceived as a little weird or extreme?' '[aw,uh] Ah, brother, that's just your mind, man. The know, the doubter in us all. Just stay on holy name, and don't get in your mind. He's our Father, man, he's taking care of all of us -- in his divine shelter, at his nectared Lotus Feet of love. Look how attentively and affectionately his mahatmas treat our children, look at how humbly and simply he lives alongside his devotees, look at how respectully and lovingly he treats those around him, look at the message about him that has remained the same for 30 years, look at how successful a businessman he has become -- it's so blissful to think that we can give him the best this world has to offer, because as the living Lord, he should have the best -- so, we must fulfill his appetite - but remember, 'Guru Maharaj ji is not hungry of our possessions.' Guru Maharaj ji is only hungry for our devotion -- and a newer, more expensive model of jet, yacht, sports car, watch, mansion, brandy, suit, helicopter, bong. Elan Vital critically needs your donations now, brothers and sisters, to help m. and his work. Get it? Somebody got it...

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:53:16 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Stuff I believed.. help is on the way Message:

Take away all the hype and trappings and the videos and the costumes and you still have a kid revealing Knowldge from east to west. I too have been aware of the light since childhood. I just thought Maharaji was the personification of it to the planet, like we all did once. I am also hip to how to conduct myself around others, but thanks anyway. Never too proud to refuse a good reminder.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 04:41:36 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: shp Subject: Sounds like you're on the right track, brother. Message:

I was worried about your own situation, actually. The tips were from my personal experience: lessons of dynamics of interpersonal contacts/relationships r.e. cult/non-cult undercurrents. The kid was programmed -- he was the novelty draw for the crowds, after all, in North India. That was his training. DLM then prepared the way to the West with self-serving p.r. scriptural hoopla and claims. Remember: These same techniques have been and are offered free by other so-called masters, teachers, yogis, monks. Historically, the apparently legit teachers didn't milk the meditation techniques to make themselves filthy rich, either. They were mostly honest humble monks, ascetics, even householders, anyway. Commonality: They didn't crave and demand delusional material and worldly devotion and weren't addicted to the Maya of palaces, sex, Rolls Royces, mega-yachts, etc. Hey, m. has no claim whatsoever on your breath or inner light, ok, man?! Peace,

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 20:34:26 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: shp Subject: belief vs meaning Message:

>I am paraphrasing Maharaji's words, but I am not deliberately changing the meaning How could you change the meaning? Was what you believed the meaning of what was said? How much meaining can words really capture? If you don't like being overweight try joining a gym. >I have no savings, no grounding in the professional world or any semblance of a career, although I am experienced, skilled and talented in many realms. If this bothers you then get to work. You are on the Internet, by the way, and therefor have access to quite a range of resources. Now what is your problem? >I am trying to figure out how I am going to finance my firstborn son into college in a little over a year There is knowledge you can't get in college. But, can it be worthwhile to attend college, sure. Make sure your kid has relativley decent grades and then check out loan/grant stuff. Your son can do a bit of part time work during school. Aim for a state school. My understanding is that Ms daughter was going to a Calif UC not a private school. And, college doesn't have to be done right after high school. Its better to attend when the interest is there. When you get all of your materialistic shit back in order then you can go back to wondering about life itself and what the heck is really going on! Good luck, X

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 17:52:10 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: X Subject: State School? Message:

Maharaji sending Wadi to a State School- you've gotta be kidding X. She had private tutors in a custom made classrooms- and later went to an expensive private school. You sound like a premie X. Would you mind answering a couple of questions? If Maharaji phoned you up personally, and asked you to do something important for him, is there anything you wouldn't do? Do you think the followers of the Rev Moon are in a cult? Do you believe that when you do the fourth technique, what you are tasting is perfect peace within? Feel free to ask me any questions in return X. I look forward to your replies. Anth the not taking the peace.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 23:00:05 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: AJW Subject: Speaking Of The Techniques Message:

The four techniques as a way to experience 'knowledge' is the biggest travesty ever foisted on the western world. Anybody who thinks othewise is an idiot and a fool. M is a disgrace to the concept of spiritual master. He can teach you only how not to think. Really useful, eh! Steve

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 22:46:00 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: AJW Subject: State School? Message:

>Maharaji sending Wadi to a State School- you've gotta be kidding Your reaction seems to be a tirade. shp was referring to college which is what I referred to as 'State School', UC actually. And, I stated that a state school could be a good option for shp's son, not as a jab but as constructive advice. >Do you believe that when you do the fourth technique, what you are tasting is perfect peace within? Feel free to ask me any questions in return X. I look forward to your replies. The ultimate point is that our own life is a mystery. Oh sure we brush the teeth, work and seem to have our good and bad times, but is that really it? You know those times when you get that sense of awe ... The wise know that what we think we know is not that much. I was just in Lytham and Lancaster for a couple weeks. Nice country. X

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 15:19:20 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: X Subject: The POINT Message:

Whether she's going to a State school or a private school, the POINT is that neither she nor her parents are SWEATING THE TUITION! And if the other three kids, God bless 'em, want to go to college, they won't sweat the mortgage on them either! Jesus Christ, don't you get it? And WHY aren't they sweating the tuition? Because they got their seed money for their fortune and personal funds from US! And while WE were giving our money and missing work to go to festivals and losing jobs over it which Maharaji endorsed, and living like semi-nomads, he was amassing his wealth! I wouldn't mind if he had showed us how to amass wealth too, but it was such a one-way street....nothing to do with being a master or a student or anything on that level. If you still don't get my POINT, try smacking yourself on the forehead with a 2 x 4 a few times, like I have been doing with all the data being shared here. Yeah, I read the Glass Bead Game, and alot of the Master Game books....all bets are off, I know. You either accept it or you don't, and you can't base your decision on anything the five physical senses can pick up. All the contradictions don't matter to someone who has bought it lock, stock and barrel.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 19:51:36 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: shp Subject: action with confidence Message:

>If you still don't get my POINT, try smacking yourself on the forehead with a 2 x 4 a few times Instead of that ... You seem to be able to write well and use the Internet. Make something of it. There are certainly plenty of people with money and I don't think the system is quite fair at times. But we can't just sit around moaning and groaning. If you didn't learn anything listening to M over the years or have any good times, I don't have an answer for you. Some good advice was given. Try action with confidence in yourself as M did over the years and you will be successful. You are not dead yet! X

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 02:11:30 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: X Subject: you still don't get it Message:

Tell me, are you in southern CA or not? Maharaji never did anything directly to me to hurt me. I had some incredible expereinces with him and with Knowledge. But tell me, X, if your sister or daughter or YOU had been molested by Jagdeo, how would you deal with that, once realizing that Maharaji was aware that Jag was sick and did not pull him out of ciculation? What exactly IS omniscience if the Master doesn't even have the ability to discern that he is sending a sicko all over the world under his mantle of power and authority over a period of YEARS on more than one continent. Now that you know the story, what do you do to justify it in your mind? Chalk it up to the law of large numbers or something? And partying at the rez while ashram premies are being saved from the drug culture? Were you in on that too? That's just for starters. And by the way, I'd rather be insulted face to face and with the truth than be sweet-talked into a sleepwalk. And I don't really care how many people, degreed or dressed up or not, were dancing in the moonlight in India. To me, it's a personal experience. What will make me dance in the moonlight of my own soul will make me happy, whether there is anyone else around or not. Sure, company is nice, but the essence of the experience is its intimacy between the Creator and the human being. So keep your subtle plane peer pressure in your pipe, and please don't blow it my way. And if you want to dialog with me, save the sublte plane condesdcension too. You remind me of me when I first got here, thinking you know it all and had some sort of upper hand. God loves me. I know that. I am protected. And if I am walking near a fire, my true Father will save me from it. Now that I know some of my brothers and sisters got burned badly, how can I trust what Maharaji said in Montrose about him being the one who would snatch us from danger?

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 00:49:36 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: X Subject: action with confidence Message:

Sez you: There are certainly plenty of people with money and I don't think the system is quite fair at times. But we can't just sit around moaning and groaning ----------------------------------------------------------------- ExTex sez: You are right! How about we all get together and TAKE SOME OF THAT UNFAIRLY GAINED WEALTH BACK instead of moaning and groaning? And I don't just mean from the phony 'Gods' that are living the good life. I always liked ROBIN HOOD!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 09:49:33 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: X Subject: See the Premie dodge the questions. (nt) Message:

surprise surprise

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 20:42:33 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: AJW Subject: State School? I think it is true actually Message:

I heard she went for a short time to the same school my daughter is now attending, University of California Santa Cruz. I was suprised myself that a 'public' school was acceptable to Rawat, not that the UCs are not great school, they are. I also heard a rumor that Daddy found her university education threatening and encouraged her to drop out and come home. I wonder if he finds the kid's internet connections threatening as well. I think there would be nothing like education to help them to question the way in which Dad has acquired his wealth and plethora of servants.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 00:56:13 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Susan Subject: Oh Those Therapist Bills! Message:

What a psychological nightmare for those kids of M! They too are victims of this madness! Can you imagine the years of therapy that it will take to help them work out their feelings about mom and dad? YIKES!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 14:20:16 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Susan Subject: State School? I think it is true actually Message:

Hi Susan - I went to a state university too (University of Maryland) and we always joked that no one who went there could be snobby about it because it meant they were either too poor or too stupid to get in anywhere else. (Not really true - state universities won't take just anyone - but I'm sure you see my point.) Hope your daughter is enjoying UC. Love, Katie

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 22:39:12 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: X Subject: You piss me off Message:

He sat there is Kissimmee on his throne thinking about extending the Hans Jayanti. We all sat on the grassy sandy meadow and begged him to stay longer. Somewhere along the way in his rambling discourse, he talked about if premies stay that's OK because you don't have to worry about the little boss, only the big boss. Maybe that's true for x's like you (I'm guessing, just a feeling, but you'll never tell), but for the rest of us peasants, do that a few times and you and yours are cordially invited to welfare and food stamps. Multiply that a few times over a few years and you have someone whose resume looks like Swiss cheese. So don't even IMPLY that I did not hear what he said or meant. If you still don't get what I am saying, have another toke and dwell on it for a bit. Walk a mile in my mocassins.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 22:07:03 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: X Subject: Yeah, she's commuting in a Porsche or something? Message:

Why don't you just say 'I'm a very important premie and you are stepping out of line, Sanford. Because that is what your vibe is saying. Speak plainly or leave me alone. See, I can read meaning. I don't covet what he has. I am bothered by the fact that he told us so many things were not important and now he has surrounded himself with those very things and his premies can't even communicate with him. Actions speak louder thatn words. He told us he loved us for years. And he doesn't even reach out to premies who have been hurt by his own personal mahatmas. What kind of love is that? I am all ears.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:59:35 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: X Subject: Why don't you just hit me with a hammer? Message:

Are you e-mailing in from southern California by any chance? Are you the big X your name implies, or just a representative? Either way, whoever you are, I am here in my own name and in the Holy Name too. Why do you hide behind a big X and act like you're hot and I'm not? You know damn well what I am saying here, premie swat team person. He said alot of shit that got taken at his word and otherwise good, smart, well-meaning people got messed up from it. Are you so arrogant as to deny that? If so, then never change. What do you have to say to Susan and Abi? Get over it? You were probably asking for it? Step back.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 20:15:58 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net To: shp Subject: My 5 cents worth Message:

Hi shp I'm a newcomer here but I am about 3 days past having made the most significant decision of my life in 23 years. If you read my first post below where I came in as 'a wavering premie' you'll see the letter I sent to maharaji and my decision to stop calling myself 'premie'. From what you've written I get the impression you are suffering exactly the same doubts and confusion I was tormented with for years and years and yet are hanging on to a thread of a belief that maharaji is some kind of Messiah, Saviour or whatever. Well let me repeat a little quote here which was handed to me out of the blue, just hours before I sent my letter to m. **** 'Life won't let you get away with pretending. Life doesn't tolerate bullshit. Lieing to yourself will make you sick, depressed, hurt.....you'll end up doing something that makes you face the truth about yourself. Life is like that. Its tough. The truer you become, the more alive you are, the more your life opens up, the more you get what you want.' **** For me that just summed up exactly where my misery was coming from. I was tired of the ambiguity, the mystery, innuendos and all the other nonsense surrounding maharaji. I needed to know, and I needed to hear it from him. I think he needs to come right out and talk to people like a normal human being, without all the fucking parables and dancing around the subject with pretty imagery, and I told him so. If nothing else , you might want to try that: write him an email (links are on maharaji.org) write a letter - be direct. You really have nothing to lose and everything to gain. And be sure to copy your letter here too, in case his email is scrutinized by PAMs before it gets to him. Take back your personal power which you have squandered on him needlessly since you got knowledge, it feels great to do so. email me if you like. regards Barry Shaw 'bazza'

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:35:25 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: shp Subject: Why didn't he share his financial knowledge too? Message:

Just think: If Maharaji had shared what he was learning about $$$ with his premies how to manage and multiply their wealth through one of his intermediaries, just like finding a hotel at a program, or childcare at a program, or where a good veggie restaurant was, stuff like that...He could have done that without looking like a financial wizard or in any way diluting his mission of spreading Knowledge if he wanted to. After all, he benefitted from the travel agencies in Miami, AMTEXT, and probably many other businesses. Why in the world didn't he share the wealth of information about how to accumulate wealth that he was obviously gathering and using to multiply our devotional love gifts with? He woulld have been so loved, appreciated and so rich he would not have had to scramble so much for himself, so many premies would have gratefully given back to him for helping them survive in this world. So many would have been able to finance his trip, spend money on the advertising specialty prodcuts, LIVE LIKE HUMAN BEINGS, take care of their kids properly, donate so much more.....I am sure many would have just walked, but many would have stayed and re-invested out of trust and love real appreciation. Shoulda coulda woulda......

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 04:45:26 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: shp Subject: Yeah! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 20:57:52 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: shp Subject: Why? because he couldn't Message:

He needed help. Those 'wizards' saved his ass. Sounds like a variation of the it's not M's fault it's the premies fault theme once again and again and again.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:05:53 (GMT) From: who cares Email: None To: shp Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

by their fruits you will know them. why are you quoting the bible anyway. can't you see, he's a fake?

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:13:05 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: who cares Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

If I just went by your thing 'by their fruits you will know them' and took Maharaji's fruit to be the Knowledge, then what? You'd lose. There has to be more talk about it than that, as easy as you'd like it to be, perhaps I am walking somewhere you have already been, so don't be so in-my-face about it, OK? And as for who cares, you must, or you wouldn't bother to post, now would ya? It's OK to care. Real men (and women) care AND eat quiche.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 01:12:32 (GMT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: shp Subject: Keeping ex-premie.org up with donations Message:

SHP, This political stuff has pissed me off to no end and I was going to blow off supporting the site this year but your begining of a new journey will force me to continue to contribute and ignore the rest. Good luck on the journey of the rest of your life! I have been gone from M for close to 20 years and there is still damage so don't expect to heal in a day. 1 premie a year and we will be done in 5 years. :=)

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 20:49:25 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: shp Subject: I always thought the fruits were the premies - LOL Message:

But really, there was some old old videotape of him with a bunch of spacey blitzed-out premies and the camera showed all the happy happy faces of the premies and then the caption 'By His Fruits You Shall Know Him' It was a source of amusement to us even as devotees. Fruits as in crazy as a fruitcake. ah well, shp have a good holiday. I agree with Gerry that the Christian thing only confuses the issue.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:44:54 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: shp Subject: Stuff I believed..how about this? Message:

Dear shp-I appreciate your sincere and questioning attitude. I feel that we have a few things in common...one was the belief that M was the 'one' who was going to do it all, and miraculously change the planet in the 'twinkling of an eye'...he fed these beliefs heavily, but now prefers to say that he never said them.... I think that you can tell something about maharaji from these actions...we both know that he said these things, and played the 'saviour' role to the max....now he says that we 'projected' this stuff onto him....joan apter says the same new age stuff, and we all know it's a cover for their denial of it all (BTW, I'm not putting down new age stuff, just their use of the new age jargon to lie and distort things..) As I told a friend, it's not so much the stuf on the EPO site that led me to question and walk away from m, but the stuff on his own site...the 'revisionist history' that he engages in, and then expects the people like you and I to swallow? It speaks volumes, IMO, about the man and the way he operates... One last thing, and this is the solution,IMO, that could clear ALL this stuff up right now, but one that we will probably not see from m.... He could just get up and tell the truth about everything....people would probably respect him more if he did that, and a lot of exes might actually lessen their venom towards him....but I don't think he will, and that tells you something as well... If he is your teacher, shouldn't he respond? He doesn't have to respond to each and every person, that would be impractical. But he could post on the internet, and clear things up for the thousands of people who have these questions... Take care. shp... Your questions will only lead you further towards the truth, on all levels.. La-ex

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:02:59 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: la-ex Subject: I could understand it if... Message:

he said someting like, 'Look premies, I came out in front when I first got here to get your attention and it was hippie days back then and nobody noticed. But now I'd be toast if I said I was your Obi-Wan too loudly. So let's just lay low for awhile...I really am, but let's not broadcast it for a while'....I could handle that if everything else were in order, but it doesn't seem to be. As for projecting 'this stuff' onto him, I was looking in some old papers recently and I gotta tell ya, it's wild. In a folder I got the day I received Knowledge, he says he's perfect enough to take on our egos, our minds, everything because he can handle it. I have another rare little piece in striking blue and yellow that proclaims 'The Lord has Come' published by DLM and has in it many quotes from many scriptures alluding to his divinity. I can only stretch my belief in the name of truth so far and then it becomes something else, something I don't want.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 20:53:01 (GMT) From: Bazza Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net To: shp Subject: Playing hide and seek Message:

That bit you said about him hiding his light under a bushel is a very very common belief among old time premies, one which I tried to use myself to explain his behaviour but which just flew in the face of what my heart was really telling me. Its really the only way a convicted premie can reconcile the drastic change in presentation - from our Lord, Christ reborn etc, to Teacher of Life subjects. I wish I had a dollar for ecvery time some premie pal of mine has said, with a wink and a nudge, 'he's just hiding his powers, pretty soon he's going to manifest will full power and the world better watch out'. Tell me you've never heard that one before or bought into it yourself. It sounds so nice, so 'bole shri' so inspiring doesnt it? Well its crap, is what it is. Hey if you got the power, if you is the Lord, you dont need to play fucking games, you just do what yu need to do to get peoples attention, period. Think on this too - all the time your energy is wrapped up in him you are shutting yourself off from possibly meeting the REAL one, if one exists and if thats what you want. Personally I dont need a saviour - my Creator gave me everything I need and enough power within me to get whatever I want out of life, i just been squandering it in the wrong direction too long. Have courage, you're almost there. Free.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:41:33 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: shp Subject: my best wishes are with you Sandy Message:

I am not sure what to say, but I am very touched by what you have written here. I know there is no way to see the things you are seeing without hurting, and that it is a hard proccess. But there is much to be gained by going through it. I am sorry too about the problems with your wife. I cannot imagine how difficult that must be. Take care, and be strong.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 13:26:34 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Sandy Subject: my best wishes are with you Sandy Message:

Hi Sandy, You wrote I did however meet a beautiful woman at a program and wanted to marry her and did. But now she is freaked that I know what I know from this site and doesn't want to hear about it to date. I wanted to let you know that I married a premie (admittedly an 80s lite model) some 7 years ago, and when I found this site about a year ago, things did get hard for us. I'd never been into Rawat, not from when he first came to Britain (Glastonbury 1971, I understand), but I hadn't realised what a nasty racketeer he had become. So things got difficult between MrsT and I. She certainly did NOT want me berating her (I'm not trying to imply you are the berating kind here; just admitting that I can tend to be a bit of an intellectual bully myself) with material from EPO, though I occasionally read her some stuff, and print off pieces for her. Anyway, we seem to have gotten through and that is just great. The way I see it, you know what it's like to Believe in Rawat just as your wife still Believes. That must mean you've got more chance than MrsT and I had, right? And we made it OK. Peace. JohnT

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:35:42 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: shp Subject: You don't think that what you are feeling? Message:

Dear SHP, I wonder what you think of yourself. You're worth much better than what M is offering you. And from what I can infer from your post it seems as if you are slightly upset and confused because you believed M's words. Is this not a form of abuse? Has M not abused you by making you feel this way? If he is a Master he should step to your side and clarify things. He should help you. Have you ever written to him? Did he ever answer in his own pen? You see the wisdom of his words. From following him and taking his teaching and advice to heart what do you have? Extra pounds and physical unfitness(which will lead to health problems if you're not careful), no savings, no money for your son's college, a waste of your intellect, talent and supression of a career. I am not a biblical scholar. My advise would be for you and your wife, if willing, to consult a priest. Preferably Catholic and lay this on the table with them. After all, the Catholics are largely responsible for the bible we have today. Lord knows they have 'revised' it enough over the centuries. These men of the cloth might offer a different intrepretation of the passages you refer to in your post. And they would be willing to help without converting you. Go ask one. As for having the pieces of the puzzle, I think you have all of them. In fact you've got the border complete. I worry about your relationship with your wife. There's been more than one religion that has ruined a marriage. Please don't let this happen to you and yours. Take care, Tonette

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:56:54 (GMT) From: shop Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Out of the frying pan into the fire Message:

Tonette, The Pope wears a ring and a crown. Inscribed on each on the inner rims are 'Vicar of Christ of earth' in Roman letters. The numreic value of the X's V's and I's in that title add up to 666. The Roman Catolic Church claims unique and original authority of Christ based on a lie, a misinterpretation of something He said. One night, the story goes, Jesus and the disciples were around the campfire and Jesus asked the disciples who they thought He was. One thought he was Elijah, one said one of the prophets, and so on. And Simon Peter said he thought Jesus was the Christ. Now Jesus replied that Simon Peter spoke rightly and was justified not by earthly evidence and fact, but by the Holy Spirit and faith. Furthermore , Jesus said 'upon this rock I will build my church'. Here is where the thing goes sideways: Simon Peter's name meant 'rock', and he ended up going to Rome to spread the gospel, got caught, killed and his bones are in the cornerstone of the Vatican. But the 'rock' Jesus was referring to was the man's faith, his spiritual sight to recognize the Master. So as far as I am concerned, the Roman Catholic Church is one of the furthest things from Christ on the planet. But thanks anyway for the suggestion. What will be will be. Thanks for your good wishes. Sandy

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:00:36 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: shp Subject: I see your point Message:

Okay then, if not the scholarily Catholics, how about asking the Quakers what they think of the passages from the bible that you refer too? They might have a different, less literal, interpretation to your musings. I was going to go to a Quaker meeting just to see what it's about. I got interested in their form of worship after reading some history of the Chesapeake Bay region. How about, if I ever follow thru with attending on of their services, I'll ask for you? What the hell, beats a satellight broadcast any day of the week. Happy Turkey Tofu Day!!! Tonette

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:18:31 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Tonette Subject: How I have gotten my realizations Message:

1) After working real hard at anything 2) Gazing at the night sky 3) In spirited discourse with other people 4) Right before sleep or just awakening 5) In prayer before I am even done asking the question 6) After reading something inspiring 7) During or after practicing Knowledge There are other ways, but these stick out right now. I'm not into organized religions. You get one opinion from one and another from their neighbor. That can go on forever.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:05:47 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: shop Subject: No masters EVER !!! Message:

Wake the fuck up !!! Read my lips: NO HISTORICAL JESUS EVER EXISTED !!! The Jesus story was an attempt to bring the ancient gnosis to the Jewish people. Sheesh Make that double sheesh.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 01:24:50 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry Speaketh The Trutheth. Message:

So TRUE! And there is plenty of carefully documented information available for those that are REALLY interested. FYI check out: 'The Jesus Puzzle'- Earl J. Doherty 'The Jesus Mysteries'- Timothy Freke; Peter Gandy (the newest and possibley best book on the subject) No Masters-No Slaves The Truth Will Make You Free Beer As In Braindear(!)

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:18:05 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: gerry Subject: That's interesting. Message:

Okay suppose Jesus never existed. All made up for political/societial manipulations. Whatever. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a time machine and find out for sure? But all that aside....Gerry I'm curious-what's your take on some of the other religious icons. Buddah, Krisna ect. Just curious. My take on it(only to be fair), I don't care. They are all long dead and humans have to keep learning the same lessons over and over again.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 20:00:29 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Tonette Subject: You may find this interesting tonette Message:

A site called www://truthbeknown.com sorry I can't do links yet. Lots of answers to the questions you have asked. Hal

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:50:29 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Tonette Subject: That's interesting. Message:

The Jesus mythology was intended as a vehicle to transmit the ancient mysteries gnosis to the Jewish culture. It's as if two thousand years from now people believe Luke Skywalker really lived and they believe in a Darth Vader. We know it was really a story meant to convey a message of sorts. I don't know much about the other supposed 'masters.' I suspect those stories are literary devices of the same type as the Osiris-Dioysius-Mithras-Jesus variety. After all there is only one truth about humankind and that is universal. And we already know what that is. The harmful part is the distortion and exploitation of this gnosis by shameless religionists of all stripes. (including gurus of course)

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:10:23 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: gerry Subject: I'll find out more for myself Message:

Thanks for your reply. I'll hunt down the book you mentioned. I never heard of this theory. It interests me. But I'm still going to put up a Christmas tree anyway. After all the kids like it and it would be a shame to waste all those ornaments. Besides my daughter really likes singing in the choir. Take care-Tonette ps you're not going to say something mean like Jim would? please don't, it would hurt my feelings.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 20:30:56 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Tonette Subject: 'Christmas' tree is a pagan tradition Message:

The 'Christmas' tree is a pagan (pre-Xian) winter-solstice tradition, that was tolerated. In fact, they have found that the fresh evergreens brought indoors help to check the spread of infectious illnesses amongst the people getting together. So ... don't worry about your 'Christmas' tree lighting up the darkest time of year! Anna

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 21:43:37 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Stonor Subject: to Stonor and Tonette and Gerry re Christianity Message:

Thanks, Stonor - other pagan traditions are are the lights on the Xmas tree, and other Xmas lights (and so are the easter bunny and easter eggs, btw.) Also, would just like to add that this is NOT an ex-Christian forum. I am not Christian myself, but have been helped a lot by remembering certain Bible verses that I was taught as a child. I am lucky in that I was not taught a brand of 'you're going to hell' Christianity or Catholicism - I am sure have a lot more problems with it if I had. I have no problem with people here who wish to re-discover or retain their Christian beliefs. One of the people I most respect here (Father Michael - a.k.a. Mickey the P) is an Episcopal priest. I respect his beliefs as well as his advice - he has helped me a lot, and doesn't push his beliefs on anyone, which I appreciate very much. I hope we can let the Christians among us be (at least until after Christmas - snicker!) Take care, all of you - Katie P.S. I personally don't have a Christmas tree because my cats chew on it, knock it down, break every ornament within reach, eat tinsel, and generally trash the house with pieces of the tree. It is just not worth it!

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 22:31:45 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Katie Subject: just one thing Message:

My views on religion aside there is a BIG diff between knocking Christianity and pointing out how M and his spin doctors used quotes from the bible to suck us in. I remember the 'young boy from the east' routine as well as this one ' In the beginning was the Word' M, the Mahatmas and others in the guru business were targeting the Christian west and they used Christianity as part of their sales tactics.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 12:47:18 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Selene Subject: just one thing Message:

Hi Selene - I agree. I wasn't sucked in by the Christian stuff (it was the Hindu stuff that got me, believe it or not) but obviously a lot of people were - and still are. They also used to say you could still practice Christianity and be a premie (I think they STILL say this - but I can't picture it!) Where does that 'child who comes from east to west' quote come from, anyway? Hey, hope you're doing well - Katie

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 19:28:13 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Katie Subject: just one thing Message:

Hi Katie, To the best of my knowledge, the one who said one would come '...from the east even unto the west', was Jesus Christ, in reference to what He called the coming of the Son of Man. I always took that to mean the next manifestation of the Christ to the world. As for the phrase 'a little child shall lead them', I am pretty sure it is in the Old Testament, Isaiah I think, referring to the One who would come to spread the Knowledge of God all over the world...the lion and the lamb would lie down together, predators and prey would drink from the same well, a child would play at the opening to a snake's den and not be harmed. I know that Fr. Mickey knows this stuff much more accurately, why not ask him? So Katie, I hope you have a good holiday even if there are things about the tradition that bother you. Just enjoy the people, the food, the season. Sandy

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 17:18:43 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Katie Subject: not sure where it comes from Message:

I don't read the bible. But I do remember the PAM's sputtering some myth, uh, prophesy? they read somewhere about the next messiah would be young and come from the east. My memory is not good on this but I assume this young kid was also to be male. Just a wild guess :) Enjoy your holiday. I hope you have the four days off like we do. I have a bad cold so therefore an excuse not to do much socializing. that's bad huh? being glad you have a cold so you don't have to hang out with people too much on Thanksgiving?

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 18:58:17 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Selene Subject: not sure where it comes from (ot) Message:

Hi Selene - I don't like Thanksgiving either. We are not going anywhere until AFTER Thanksgiving - then we are going to have a meeting with some 'high-ranking' ex-premies (snicker). BTW, I do have to work, all four days and during the Xmas holiday too. But this is an ever better excuse for not having to go anywhere. Hope you feel better. It is so COLD here - the high yesterday was 29 degrees. Guess AZ is nice these days - or at least I hope so. Love, Katie

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 00:47:05 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Selene Subject: thank you selene Message:

Yes, it's only in the context of 'boy from the east' that I even bring up my views on Christianity. I'm not trying to bash anyone's religion here as Katie seems to think. Clearly, understanding these religous myths for the allegories they really are, instead of the literal, dogmatic and authoritarian vehicles they have been distorted into, gets us closer to the 'truth.' And I bet Mickey the Pharisee knows this better than any three people here including myself...

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 19:54:01 (GMT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: gerry, Selene, Katie, SHP Subject: Mickey the Exegete weighs in.... Message:

Okay, I've been reading this part of the thread and going nuts, of course. I want Tonette to know that the RC's didn't have that much to do with the Bible; the canon was put together before there was a Roman Catholic church. Yes, pagan practices were incorporated into Christian belief; Christmas trees and Easter eggs and the Easter Bunny are hardly Christian but very pagan. I think that I have always been very clear regarding the so-called 'gnosis.' The gnostics were and are spiritual elitists and not Christian. Read Justin Martyr to learn about the similarities. Now, the Bible stuff. I really wish people would take the time to actually LOOK UP PASSAGES before they quote them here. Sandy, you know that this has been a bone of contention between us ever since you arrived at this site. If we read the Gospel, which are supposed to tell us what Jesus said, he NEVER made this prophecy about a little child coming from the East to the West to lead everyone to peace or whatever. Sandy, you need to drop that idea. It is untrue, it is inaccurate, it has been holding you down. The passage about 'a little child shall lead them' is Isaiah 11:6 'The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie soen with teh kid, the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them.' If you read the vercses before this, you will realize that the prophet is talking about a world of peace, and the little child will be leading the calf and the lion and the fatling together. No mention of the East to West or anything else. I don't know about this 'East to West' thang; it sounds like the proof-texting that DLM did to spread their lies. There is a passage, Matthew 8:11 which is part of a story where Jesus has been talking with a centurion who has asked Jesus to heal his daughter and states that he knows Jesus has the authority to do so. The centurion says that he is a man under authority and that if he tells his soldiers or slaves to do something they do it, so Jesus will be able to do so with the illness (many believed that illness was caused by demons at that time). Jesus was amazed at the centurion's statement and said: 'Truly I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come rom east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the heirs of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (RSV) Lovely sentiments, and we can only hope that the 'heir of heaven' mentioned is M. Sandy, I know that you think that my exegesis of scripture is nit picking, but when one actually reads the texts and studies them, one will not fall for such twisted prophecies. I want you to work your way through all this, and I'm pulling for you, really, but spending all these years believing something which is not even there has kept you trapped. I'm praying that you will truly see the light.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 15:28:23 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Buenos Dias, Mickey Message:

And Happy Thanksgiving. I posted earlier up the thread about the Isaiah quote and the 'child leaidng them' into a world of peace. As for the 'east to west', you know the one...'for as the lightning shines from the east evern unto the west, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man'...the words are written on my heart, and I don't recall the book page, but I definitely remember Jesus being quoted as saying this in reply to a question about the next divine appearance or manifestation on earth after Him. Your comments? Sandy the Samaritan when it comes to chapter and verse (but the Samaritan knew how to treat his fellow man even if he didn't know the book like a pro!)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 23, 2000 at 18:57:47 (GMT) From: Mickey el Fariseo Email: None To: shp Subject: ¡Feliz Dia de Gracias, Sandy! Message:

I think you are referring to Mathew 24:27 'For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.' In the verses preceding, he talks of those claiming that the Messiah has come and that false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens to lead astray the elect. Most would read this to be a discussion of the parousia, or Second Coming, and not the appearance of the next Perfect Master, since the PM is not a Xian concept, and the gospels were written by Xians for Xians. I think that verse 27 means that the appearance will be far reaching, not that the Son of Man will come from the east to the west. Of course, I think any attempt to apply Biblical prophecy to M to be quite a stretch. Actually, I believe that most Biblical prophecy is questionable. Many prophecies were written after the fact; that is the nature of the apocalyptic style. The book is written in the style or manner of a past prophet (the book of Daniel, for example) and the prophecies are to be relevant to the audience (in Daniel´s case, Jews living in 164 BCE). It doesn´t hurt to know the book like a pro, especially if one plans to quote from it. Happy Thanksgiving.

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Date: Wed, Nov 22, 2000 at 21:35:09 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: you aren't nitpicking Message:

I really appreciate the clarification. I think you are right in guessing DLM had a lot to do with the 'he will come from the east' part. Thanks Michael.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:19:45 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Well, I am a Jim Wannabe, but... Message:

HOW COULD I POSSIBLY HURT THE FEELINGS OF A SWEET PERSON LIKE YOU, TONETTE ?!? Patty loves Christmas and we always have a tree when staying home for the holidays and I grumblingly go along with it all. Actually I'm getting better about it as time go on. Read that book The Jesus Mysteries. It really helps.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:10:15 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: We were not there Message:

We believe what gets us through the day/night. You can't prove he didn't exist and I can't prove he did. Our bumper cars are up against the rail. Chill out. Whatever the case, the Golden Rule gets me high and would bring peace to the world if everyone followed it. One simple rule. That's power.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:15:24 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: shp Subject: Bullshit, shp Message:

This belief in the biblical jesus is a main part of what's fucking you up. There is NO evidence for a historical Jesus. Scholars have searched in vein for years. Get over it. Read The Jesus Mysteries. I think you'd really like it.

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Date: Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 01:52:48 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: shp Subject: Investigate Message:

Gerry is correct. And it is really NOT just a case of 'we were not there so we will never know'. There is hard evidence that has been very meticulously researched that proves without a doubt that there was no actual person Jesus. But it takes a little work and research to learn about it. It kinda goes against the grain of our culture and upsets a lot of 'apple carts' so it isn't going to be on CNN or the front page of the NY Times. Check out the books we've mentioned. They are not written by flaky characters but well respected scholars. Also this revelation doesn't throw out the 'good teachings' of the scriptures but rather shows where they came from. Very useful and interesting.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:20:53 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: Good fertilizer, Jerry Message:

I just called my local library. They don't have it. I will check out my local huge bookstores like Borders and Barnes and Noble. But I still disagree with you. Check out the historian Josephus and the Gospels are also historical writing and I don't mean the King James versions. Dead Sea Scrolls and other Essene writings suggest a Teacher of Righteousness around his time. But I do agree with you that what is important is what is happening NOW, and divine inspirations that are coming into our own heads. After all, thatis how the scriptures got written down in the first place, by people who were inspired.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:41:43 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: shp Subject: Perfect reply, Sandy Message:

Josephus, the jewish 'historian' was actually a traitor to his people and a suck up to the Romans. He has little credibility to begin with. That said, there is one small reference to 'a jesus' which scholars have determined to be a later date insertion into his narrative. In other words, a deliberate deception. The Dead Sea Scrolls are Gnostic writings and do not mention Jesus at all. They do however, encode the 'ancient mysteries' from Egypt and Sumeria. You'll be really surprise when you find out what this ancient gnosis really consists of. Do I really have to rebut your ridiculous statement that the 'Gospels' are historical writing? Let's dance on the head of a pin instead... My local library had a copy. Here's the amazon link And sandy, you misspelled my name.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 19:09:26 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: gerry Subject: Perfect reply, Sandy Message:

Gerry, Sorry for misspelling your name. How do you know Josephus was a suck up and a traitor to his people? I have some of the Essene Gospels of Peace from the Dead Sea Scrolls. I used to live and eat that way, just from the earth. Never felt better, healthier, more whole spiritually, more alert mentally, or more connected to who and what I was created to be. It's tough to do in urban US wtih families, but just writing about this is inspiring me to try it again with fervor and regain my birhtright of vitality and health and clearer sight....and drop those friggin 30 lbs!!

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:19:42 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: gerry Subject: what about the 'Dead Sea Scrolls?' nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:19:28 (GMT) From: Rick Email: None To: shp Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

Hello shp, It sounds like you have all the pieces to the puzzle. And it sounds like you're being honest about what you're trying to sort out. It takes some time for the cake to rise, so just know what you know and give it some time to sink in. You can't chase your doubts away. That was the biggest pitfall of maharaji. If you have lingering feelings that maharaji may be the messiah, so be it. One thing's for sure, he isn't going to prove it to you. You'll have to do it by faith. If that isn't good enough for you... well, welcome to your life. Alot of the conditioning you received from maharaji is just that.. conditioning. By it's nature, it gets you to ask questions in a backwards fashion. The question isn't 'What if maharaji is the Lord?'. The question is 'What if he isn't?' Either way you're screwed. If he isn't the Lord and you abandon your life for him, you lose. If he is, and you abandon Him, you lose. So based on what you're saying in your post, there's no way to not gamble. Somehow you have to make a choice and you don't feel you have enough information to be sure. You're already making a choice, sort of. You have plenty of reason to doubt maharaji and that's what you're doing. On one side, you have maharaji's 'teachings' telling you not to doubt. But you smell a rat, and can't help but feel some doubt. If you ask premies, they're going to tell you not to doubt maharaji. That the real prize is enlightenment and that you have to trust in order to get it. Naturally, when you ask ex-premies, their response is predictable also. They're going to say, 'Don't worry. Nothing bad will happen if you ditch maharaji.' But they could be in hell and not know it, so what then? You're just going to have to take a chance, shp. Give it some time, let it all sink in, and then combine the information you have with your gut instincts and move ahead.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:31:20 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Rick Subject: Reply to Rick Message:

So Rick, I know that this site is monitored by Maharaji and/or his assistants. I feel like have a better chance of him seeing my words and knowing how I feel by posting here than by mailing him directly. If I was afraid, I would not be here now. I hear you and thank you for your feedback. Sometimes approaching a fork in the road requires alot of faith to let the steering wheel do its thing on a wing and a prayer. It actually happened to me once in Coconut Grove, the wheel turned at a fork on a prayer. Nobody was in danger, but I was playing with God in faith and He played back. Time to play the fork in the road game again. I believe if someones stays with Maharaji out of fear, they are in worse shape than someone who leaves him out of faith. It's not about where we are on the outside, or else I'd have left New Jersey a long time ago!!

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:11:06 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

dear Sandy - I don't have any pieces of the puzzle that you haven't read in my posts or Journeys entry, but I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your most sincere post. A few comments: When I was a premie, I believed all those things that 'M said' too - particularly the statements that education and friends did not matter. I also felt separated and isolated from people who did not have knowledge. Furthermore, these statements built on previous beliefs I had that 'this world did not matter' (I was BIG into apocalyptic thinking at the time). I was fortunate enough to be able to leave Maharaji in time to get a college degree at a relatively young age, and to also learn that I wasn't any different from anyone else in the world - 'knowledge' or not. And because of my education, I am able to make a difference - for the better - in the world, specifically in the area of environmental protection Maybe this doesn't 'matter' in the long run, but it matters to me - and to future generations too! Also, I do find it reprehensible that Maharaji preaches, but does not practice, ideals of non-attachment to the things of this world! There is no valid reason why your son should be victimized by your adherence to principles preached by Maharaji when Maharaji doesn't believe in these principles when applied to his own children. This is actually what made one friend of mine leave: it was the difference between how her children were treated at festivals and how Maharaji's children were treated at the same festivals. She didn't get angry for herself, but she got very angry for her children - rightly so, I think. I appreciate your dilemma that perhaps Maharaji IS the Perfect Master in spite of it all. I think this is what keeps a lot of premies following Maharaji even when they would rather not - in other words, you have a lot of company. But basically, I do not think that anyone has a right to 'teach' by being abusive to others, and I reject the authority of anyone who attempts to do this. Big picture or little picture, it is WRONG to deliberately hurt innocent people to make a point. I would also hesitate to say that Jesus's prophecies (or any of the bible prophecies) have predicted Maharaji's coming. I do not believe that Jesus was divine, but I believe he was a great teacher, and a loving, right-thinking man. The two commandments he gave about loving God and loving each other are worth their weight in gold, and to me, are worth far more than any 'prophecies' that may have been distorted, re-written, or misinterpreted (see any TV evangelist's intepretation of biblical prophecies, for example. I believe Jesus would be appalled at this!). BTW, I sincerely hope your son does get to go to college if that is what he wants. Take care, Sandy - Katie

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:22:47 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Katie Subject: To Katie Message:

Thanks for your words, Katie. My sons will get everything they need. I will do what ever it takes to help them, with God's help.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:05:53 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: shp Subject: Stuff I believed..Michael D and anyone, help Message:

Anybody got any parts of the puzzle you might think I am missing to have a better view? Yeah, you can't differentiate what you believe in your mind from what's actually real. Why do you believe all this stuff about the prophesies? How many have you seen come true? People twist things to make it look the way they want, like saying Maharaji is the child from the east, but Jesus made his prophesy two thousand years ago, if he made it at all. But if he did make it, do you really think he was talking to this generation? Only in your imagination could that be true; only in your far-fetched interpretations of the scriptures. Your problem is that you're trapped in the fantasies of your own mind, and because of that you can't see the forest for the trees. You're stuck in never-never land. But you're making progress with your sensible observations of how you've tried to follow Maharaji's teachings and the consequences you've suffered because of that. I wish you continued success along those lines. Good luck.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:14:34 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jerry Subject: reply to Jerry Message:

Jerry, Are you telling me that you don't hear the sound of distant thunder too? Are you telling me that you don't sense someting happening on the planet that is not just another day at the office? I know that even if I had not read and studied all the scriptures and spent time in a monestary, I'd still feel something about the times we are living in right now. Thnk about it.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:42:40 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: shp Subject: back to shp Message:

It's all evolution, bro. Even our ability to fantasize and be awed by things. It's all evolution. You think about THAT. I've read the scriptures and use to believe the key to existence and understanding was in them, but then I woke up and realized that what I was reading was the mind of man and what that's capable of. We can create incredible myths, believe in them, and teach them to others so they'll believe in them too. Our minds are remarkable mechanisms. It's very easy to confuse the real with the unreal. You asked for some help. That's what I'm offering. Be aware of your own mind's capabilities and when it's tuned to reality and when it's not.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:58:44 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jerry Subject: back to Jerry Message:

Thank you Jerry for your helpful spirit regardless of the words. I grok what you mean.

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 17:26:16 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: shp Subject: Sandy - apocalyptic beliefs Message:

Dear Sandy - I have heard 'the sound of distant thunder' ever since I was a child. Maybe literally - my dad worked in the Pentagon and thought there was going to be nuclear war at any minute, and I was in first grade in the DC area during the Cuban Missile Crisis. I grew up convinced I was going to die any minute. When I became a 'little hippie' at the age of 15, I got even more of these apocalyptic beliefs. However, I had to reject those beliefs because they were making me so scared that I was non-functional. I still have a lot of problems planning for any future - and there's been a lot of 'future' for me since I was a kid - 'future' I didn't think I was going to have. What I am trying to say is that these beliefs can be destructive, especially when they are as deeply imbedded as mine. We have be able to live day to day in this world - and it's hard enough to do that. I think you are somewhat older than me, and probably grew up under different circumstances, so you may not understand the level of terror I experienced (and STILL experience) regarding the 'end-times', 'the apocalypse', the 'Age of Aquarius', or whatever. However, a lot of people that grew up as I did feel the same way - please try and understand. TC - Katie

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Date: Tues, Nov 21, 2000 at 18:44:20 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Katie Subject: Sandy - apocalyptic beliefs Message:

Katie, We all process these things differently. I had what I take to be authentic visions of apocalypse more than thirty years ago. They sit with me on a very deep level indeed. They ring as true today as they ever did. I also think it is important to come to terms with the everyday world. I've not been so good at this but I keep working at it. I've found the ways to work the both of these together, the personal life and the visionary life. They are both really important to me. Joy and happiness to you, Bobby

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