Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 04:33:29 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: brian Subject: perimeter of chaos...Choice Message:

Hi Brian, I loved your post. I don't know you, but I grokked what you said. It is both honest and daring for you to post that. My reaction was that it sounds as if you have forgiven M. But I don't know you so, have you? If you have, (and even though it's a very Christian concept) congratulations!!! Forgiveness is a wierd thing, don't you think? I rather think of it as a sort of release. When it happens, something changes. It's like breaking out of a deep grief, which grief caused such pain. However, I don't see myself forgiving Maharaji too soon. And I think that's the reaction you got. I say Great! We're all in the same book but on different pages. Shit! I just sounded like Maharaji. I hate that, when it happens. Shit. Shit. Shit. I have concluded so far that everything, probably, just about, except for a shit load of things, is a choice. I don't know about fate, but sometimes I believe in it. I can't dictate every second's activity like choose if I will or won't fall on the ice again,:)). If I will get to see some Northern Lights this year, I will howl at the sky. Totally unpredictable, and when they happen and you're there to see them happen, a total joy comes up. Nature. Chaos? I don't care. I've come to see that it's a choice how I deal with stuff during my day to day life. I'm not perfect, and won't ever expect myself to be perfect again. That, is a day to day practice, no thanks to Maharaji. What I chose for my life when my life became unbearable was to heal from the wounds of my life. All of them? Never. But I'm learning how to be an adult and accept responsibility for the things I do today and tomorrow not just yesterday. And try not to be hard on myself or others, except for sometimes, because I'm not perfect. I don't blame myself for the whole Maharaji thing in my life though I do see the vulnerabilities I had when I entered. I am not beyond his betray, and have great interest in watching his cult. I shall blame him until I die, for doing nothing about Jagdeo. I'm sorry for ramblin on and on. Beautiful prose, Brian, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 09:13:06 (GMT) From: brian Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: perimeter of chaos...Choice Message:

Thank you Cynthia, yes I forgive Maharaji, he basically is doing what he has been trained to do from birth. And I have to say that he does it well, he is amoung other things a truly gifted orator and salesman. Why do I forgive him? because I bought what he was selling! I raised my hand and said, I will take that which you are offering, and no-one twisted my arm to do it. That is where my choice in the matter comes in. There are choices that we make consciously and there are subconscious choices that run us and cause reactions in our lives that we cannot always explain. I cannot explain to you how I got to this point of forgiveness, and I am quite sure that based on your experience, my story would not remedy your pain. I will tell you this much, that what ever I did on both a conscious and sub conscious level has truly liberated me. I do feel better, And I do feel that it all comes back to my choice, what I needed at the time I got knowledge, and to the many choices and needs that have changed over the years. Am I bitter? No.... not at all, and I consciously forgive M and even myself which believe it or not, is even harder, You cannot force yourself to do what you do not want to do. It will backfire, and I sense that you are being kind to yourself, So please continue to be good to yourself, and not be hard on yourself, you have made a conscious choice to heal and that is what is happening, that is a start. I appreciate your response

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 18:57:35 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: brian Subject: you forgive him because you bought his con? Message:

Brian (and I take it you're another person by that name, and not the same Brian who set up ex-premie.org and who has always posted under that name?) You say: 'Why do I forgive him? because I bought what he was selling! I raised my hand and said, I will take that which you are offering, and no-one twisted my arm to do it ...' Remember that it wasn't just the 'Knowledge' that we got when we raised our hands to recieve it. He was also 'selling' his own supposed divinity, 'Lord of the Universe' 'That Superior Power in Person' no less. Now he claims that he never said he was God (see Elan Vital's site for a video clip of him actually saying this at http://www.elanvital.org/faq_opposing_views.htm) Can you forgive him for such a blatant lie? If so, how?

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 22:49:37 (GMT) From: brian too Email: None To: cq Subject: you forgive him because you bought his con? Message:

Sorry for not getting back sooner, Yes I do forgive M, I forgive the premies and I forgive myself. For everything, I am not grinding any more axes with anyone. In the last couple of days I have actually reaquainted myself with my committment to practice knowledge. My response a couple of days ago might have been different, After a few inquiries here I have changed my mind and that is what I want to do. I cannot be of any help about how to give forgiveness. Whenever or if ever you get around to it you will just do it, no instructions needed.

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Date: Tues, Dec 12, 2000 at 18:53:34 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: brian too Subject: I see. But what you call 'forgiveness' sounds more Message:

... sounds more like avoidance of the issues. It's your choice, 'Brian too', but I hope you can see that you're only postponing facing questions that your subconscious is going to keep throwing back at you, until you manage to resolve this. The issue of Maharaji's denials on the EV website portraying him as a blatant liar does need resolving. And by choosing to run away from that issue, you make it all the more clear just how dangerous you consider it to be - to your allegiance, your trust, your pride, your ability to have faith in the power of your own judgement. Becoming free of Maharaji is not an easy journey. And I can understand how much safer it feels to sweep all these difficult questions (and they are difficult to resolve) back under the carpet. If it's been a harsh wake-up call that some posters on this Forum have given you, it's because the defences that the premie belief-system (belief about WHO Maharaji is, rather than about whether or not the meditation is beneficial) - those defences that kick in to protect your image of what/who M is - they NEED to be confronted, if you're to regain your own independence. And from what you say, at the moment that sounds like it's a big if. But best of luck, anyway. Chris

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:31:55 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: brian Subject: discovered on a search for the meaning of..... Message:

....magical thinking. Much Madness is divinest Sense -- To a discerning Eye -- Much Sense -- the starkest Madness -- 'Tis the Majority In this, as All, prevail -- Assent -- and you are sane -- Demur -- you're straightway dangerous -- and handled with a Chain -- Emily Dickinson I'm with Emily

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:52:29 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Bobby Subject: on magical thinking and Emily Message:

Bobby, First off, I adore Emily. I have several books of her works and life, and often one of her poems in the last thing in my day. No one puts me in awe as she does with her higher perspective so brilliantly and beautifully brought down into words. However, that leaves open the discussion about when the higher wisdom becomes misappropriated to aspects of our Earthly existence. The human attempt to apply the purity of higher spheres to all physical activity is one of the scourges of religion. And there are many!

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 12:33:19 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Way Subject: on magical thinking and Emily Message:

I think I agree. I always liked Joseph Campbell's phrasing 'historicizing the sacred', a form of attempting to grasp the divine. Then there's the shamanic dilemma of living in two worlds. How does one effectively maintain the apparent separate integrities of the sublime and the mundane? It seems there are answers to that in some religions, definitely in Tibetan Buddhism.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 16:17:59 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: brian Subject: perimeter of chaos Message:

brian, I am a bit perplexed about many of the statements you make. You seem to be expressing a lot of magical thinking: You accept complete responsibility for your own life??? Examine that statement carefully. Surely you don't mean it as it stands. I think a bit of a rewrite is required. You blame no one for leading you on??? And you call that beautiful? I would call that unexamined, and not fully informed. But do you mean that no-one led you on, or that you don't fault them even though they did? And do you apply this to both fellow premies and the guru. I'm perplexed. You will always have your own choice available every second??? How is this statement to be understood, as it stands? Does it refer to a certain choice, if so, which one? You got what you asked for, a chance to go inside? If that's what you wanted, I'd say you got a little more than what you asked for. Don't we all have the opportunity for self-realization, completely irrespective of Mr. Rawat and those four particular techniques? As always, you got what you asked for? As always?! You mean to claim that you always get what you ask for? Really? Forgive me if I am only nitpicking with your way of writing. But if you actually mean to say what you in fact say, I must respond that you have your heard in the clouds and your feet several inches above the ground. Come back to Earth, it's not so bad!

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 19:43:13 (GMT) From: brian Email: None To: Way Subject: perimeter of chaos Message:

I agree that you are perplexed, and your perplexity is not my responsibility to clear up. I stand at face value for whatever statements I made, and I could care less about how many holes you can find to poke into them. So what that there are many. And that is the ugly truth.......

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 20:27:31 (GMT) From: way Email: None To: brian Subject: sorry, brian Message:

brian, I admit that my response to your first post was confrontational, and I apologize if I have offended you to the point that you do not wish to continue the conversation. I really am sorry, because I appreciated you posting your message here, and I do not want to scare anyone away from this Forum. But I made my comments because they represent very interesting points. For instance, the question of personal responsibility for one's life. This is an interesting topic of discussion for ex-premies. What responsibility should we assign to Mr. Rawat for misquiding us? You deliver him from all blame, and I really object to that. There is also the more general issue between us about magical thinking. I think there are some 'New-Age' sentiments that should be challenged. This is also an issue between Bobby and I. I see that he has made a post in its favor, and I will respond when I get done here. But first I have to repeat my apology for bluntly describing your feelings as having your head in the clouds. That was rude and counterproductive to welcoming you to the discussion. Having said that, dare I make a fresh objection? - 'ugly truth' is an oxymoron.

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Date: Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 05:27:52 (GMT) From: brian Email: None To: way Subject: sorry, brian Message:

Thank you Way, I accept your apology and I appreciate your forthright sentiments. I want to acknowledge you for extending to me the invitation to participate in this inquiry. You need not worry about scaring me off, I am not looking for agreement or acceptance here. To respond to your question about m's responsibility, As hard as it is to accept, One cannot assign responsibility to to another, you can point it out, not that it matters to the responsible party in question. The best way that I have found to deal with it is to own up to my responsibility. If my neck is stretched out on the tracks when the 5:15 rolls across it, I am the turkey that put it there. Is that so hard to see? And yes Ugly Truth is an oxymoron, good call

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 05:33:59 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: brian Subject: groovy, now how about responding to suchabanana Message:

You play fast and loose with words and logic, fella. How about tackling Such's post? , As hard as it is to accept, One cannot assign responsibility to to another, you can point it out, not that it matters to the responsible party in question. This is meaningless. You can point it out, but can't 'assign' it? Poppycock. God, infuriatingly stupid word games that mean nothing. Now how 'bout Such's post?

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 09:02:37 (GMT) From: brian Email: None To: gerry Subject: groovy, now how about responding to suchabanana Message:

Thanks Gerry, I did respond to suchabana, check it out, Sat Dec 9th 2000 00:10:34 if the way is within etc, under brian.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:23:14 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: brian Subject: ... and how about responding to me? Message:

From this very thread: Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 18:57:35 From: cq Email: None To: brian Subject: you forgive him because you bought his con? Message: Brian (and I take it you're another person by that name, and not the same Brian who set up ex-premie.org and who has always posted under that name?) You say: 'Why do I forgive him? because I bought what he was selling! I raised my hand and said, I will take that which you are offering, and no-one twisted my arm to do it ...' Remember that it wasn't just the 'Knowledge' that we got when we raised our hands to recieve it. He was also 'selling' his own supposed divinity, 'Lord of the Universe' 'That Superior Power in Person' no less. Now he claims that he never said he was God (see Elan Vital's site for a video clip of him actually saying this at http://www.elanvital.org/faq_opposing_views.htm) Can you forgive him for such a blatant lie? If so, how?   Well, brian,   if so,   how?

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 20:41:05 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: cq and everyone Subject: Barf Bag Alert Message:

I found the clip. It's amazing. Get the barf bag ready and watch him squirm. Steve

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 14:30:07 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: brian Subject: chaos mandala Message:

Funny, the 'perimeter of chaos' you describe is akin to the symbolic imagery of one of the Buddhist Tantra mandalas. In that representation, the Deity (projection of our own Mind) dances amidst a vast landscape of life and death events, including charnel grounds. The Deity herself is surrounded by the 'fire of Aeon' and her mandala is marked at the perimeters by little swirling vortices of chaotic energy. Wildness is always at the borders. The key is to ground in love and compassion.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 05:15:09 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: brian Subject: If the way is within, M's irrelevant for the wise! Message:

Dear Brian, Remember that a lot of that chaos was actually created at the organizational core (not at the perimeter) -- by Prem, his fucked-up greedy family (including him), his infernal perpetual scams and never-ending pleas for his money org machine, and the superstitious concepts and dogma he and his dupes ritualized and fed everybody - to serve him and his never-ending material appetites. Meditation is fine - but only if you like it. Some of the exes here eschew it, while others (like me) still chew it. If Prem wanted to spread knowledge to millions of people, he wouldn't have solicited and hoarded most of the money for himself. He wouldn't have lied - and acted like he alone owned your fucking insides and soul and the spiritual key. With the literally hundreds of millions of dollars that have been donated over the years, those same techniques could have already been spread by experienced meditator-instructors to tens of millions of people. (Parasite Raja ji is an instructor - what a joke!) No, Prem diverted most of the money for himself. He's a fraud, in that respect. He does not deserve our respect - let alone devotion. I was a devoted follower of Prem (and insider) for almost 30 years, too, until I realized the extent to which Prem has patently abused the trust of the premies and aspirants, and he and EVI have lied and spin-doctored to perpetuate his worldly power trip -- instead of coming clean, like Krishnamurti did. Techniques are just techniques - but the experience within has nothing to do with him - it's yours alone, brian. He's irrelevant now, because he knowingly abused the truth. The Rawat family line comes from the Singhs (from the Sikh tradition), and it was the Sikhs who promulgated the dynastic appropriation and hoarding of others' yogic practices and truths. If the experience is within you, it's yours - not his. If the techniques are old, then they also predate him. Other people reveal some of the same meditations - it is known that his dad collected them from several teachers, too. It is also now known that Rawat's dad was not even the person designated by Sarupanand to succeed him as guru. The Rawat family added the Krishna crown and claims, the perversion of genuine altruistic guru traditions, and the self-serving money machine - which they bitterly fought over in court in India, UK, and USA. Now Bubblegum ji (SatPal) and lil' bro fat-ass are setting up their own families to continue the profitable charade. Usurping the teachings of monastic yogis for worldly power over naive sheep followers. I say: enjoy the meditation - if you actually do sit down and really do it daily (or whenever). Not like, oh yeah, I'm on 'Holy Name' all day cruising around at my job (or whatever). Some of the most fanatical premies in denial I know are the very people who haven't been sitting down and meditating every day for all those years. Many of them believe in a lazy myth - that Prem has some kind of power over their experience, and that they are saved just because they have knowledge and think he and it is the key, and are devoted to him. The truth is, Prem doesn't have a clue about your personal experience. Truthfully, when's the last time he personally guided you into samadhi? You don't need him -- in fact, he's an obstacle to anybody's spirituality, at this point (because he has lied; his so-called knowledge comes with strings attached to him, him, him and his selfish piggy trip). Deluded or whatever, he fucked up and he dares not cop to the fraud -- the money machine would stop. He lied in the way that he and his family have misrepresented simple meditation techniques to accrue material benefit and worldly power to themselves. He is irrelevant to your spirituality -- and believing in him, the individual or as a guru now, is an obstacle that obstructs one's spiritual progress and the truth of existence. So, let's proceed from here, in truth. That's the ticket. Not Prem's and EVI's spin-doctored thorny thicket of time-worn misrepresentations, and the blame he's laid on everyone else -- to evade responsibility and distract us from the fact that the buck with every fucked-up thing with him and in his organization stops with Prem himself: The homocidal assault on Pat Halley (Rawat's responsible for what his organization agents did, with his knowledge), the sexual abuse of dozens of premie children by Jagdeo (Prem knew and wouldn't deal with it), the thousands of ashram premies thrown out on the street after generating hundreds of millions of dollars for him (because he didn't want to provide health care or for their eventual retirement), the diversion of tens of millions of dollars of donations for his exclusive tax-free personal benefit (yacht, planes, luxury cars, mansions, accounts, corporations, etc.), the spiritual superstitions and lies he has promoted and perpetuated to enthrone and benefit himself and his position, and so forth. This site is a wake-up call, brian. This site is truly providing a service, this forum contains the company of people who speak from the truth of their experiences, and you can still meditate all you want: without Prem, his boring videos (many of us here could give you the same mellow nebulous rap he gives - or better), the insipid muzak EVI calls music, the millions in donations diverted to him (not to propagation; but a little propagation for show in the videos feeds the money machine). How many people in West Africa are really crying out for Prem and to receive knowledge? Not very many at all, or elsewhere (except India, where He still presents himself like he did in the 70s, which contradicts the EVI website claims). The participation vids are candy-coated propaganda sound-bites and clips. It's utter bullshit -- the big bucks go to feed fatso and his clan. Prem personally destroyed the premie communities to focus everything on himself (were we so misguided? bullshit), he destroyed the growth and satsang of his own devotees (lots of potential competition - like his dad was, to the real successor of Sarupanand), the satellite feeds are just another money-grubbing tool to feed his ego-power and money trip. Surrender the reins of your precious life to a single person, Prem? Really?! How about, just surrender to God within (if you would). In God we trust, all others pay cash. Well, Prem's had an entire lifetime of prepping for and feeding off this deluded trip. It's time he paid cash, too. After all, he's got the big big mega-bucks now. Everything Prem owns he basically owes to the premies. Every fucking thing. And what gratitude and appreciation has he shown to the premies? He shits all over his premies. So, fuck false materialist gurus who live a lie, debase the truth for their own power, milk fortunes and shit on their devotees. As others here can vouch, I usually don't use such strong language, but Prem and his spin doctors abused my sincere trust for almost 30 years. I sacrificed so many things in my life for the sake of being his premie. What has he ever sacrificed for anyone? Nothing. Nothing at all. Does Prem invite or allow dialogue on his official org sites? NO. Even enjoyinglife is censored and edited for political correctness. Like it or not, this forum is the only place on the internet where past and current premies and aspirants are expressing themselves openly and freely. The truth shall set you free. Peace,

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 19:20:32 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: all Subject: ***BEST OF*** (we still have a best of, J-M?) (nt) Message:

Spoken like it is, Such, thanks.

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 10:08:58 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: meditation habits of rawat cult members Message:

Hi- Thanks for your post. I can say that the vast majority of rawat cult members I know have just done the minimum amount of medition(now known as practice)agyad by fatso....one would think that if it is so good then--------? Even when I was trapped in the cult, I always wondered about this...now, I'm left wondering if the amount I used to do affected my brain chemistry!

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Date: Sat, Dec 09, 2000 at 08:10:34 (GMT) From: brian Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: If the way is within, M's irrelevant for the wise! Message:

Thanks, I really appreciate your response suchabanana, It is even more revelant and significant particularly coming from the level of devotion and service that you must have mustered up over a thirty year time frame. I am assuming that you were at one point quite zealous in your commitment. It means alot to me and oviously to others that you would take the time to render such a thoughtful and insightful response to my post.

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Date: Mon, Dec 11, 2000 at 16:16:14 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: brian Subject: You call that an answer ??? Message:

Well, Suchabanana's post to you is in almost total opposition to your vacuous drivel and this silly obsequious post does nothing to answer the pointed challenges to you new age excreta.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 23:43:19 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: I keep coming here Such.... Message:

....... to read stuff like that. Thanks for taking the time to write it. Being betrayed by the 'lord ' is a major kick in the head , isn't it . Speaking of heads reminds me of the saying ' uneasy lies the head that wears the crown'. You mention Rawat's crown. I think his crown , gold , studded with precious stones,its provenance,manufacture,tax status in India & elsewhere, could be the key to his downfall. Maybe someone with serious balls knows something ? In the meantime Such , I'm with you on the path. Give up believing that love is eternal ?...... Never. FUCK YOU RAWAT: WHERE DID YOU GET ALL THAT SHIT YOU WORE ON YOUR HEAD FROM.

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 22:21:40 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: If the way is within, M's irrelevant for the wise! Message:

Dear Such, Great post, seems like it was good for you to get that all out. I don't have much time to read here but belive you when you say you don't usually use such strong language, didn't think it was near as bad as some I've read here anyway but since you don't usually I hope that doing so, getting it out was good for you. Love, Robyn

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 18:16:05 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Great post Such- thanks nt Message:

hxd

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 15:24:39 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Powerful, insightful, truthful, such, thanks(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Dec 08, 2000 at 02:50:20 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: brian Subject: What can one say,but bully for you? Message:

You sound a lot clearer than me, I'm open for ideas if you've got any about that Yet after all that responsibility chaos continues to swirl, and somewhere within all that swirling there's a really good vibe, I thought that was called living, living and learning and loving and loathing and loafing blah de blah........

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 23:42:53 (GMT) From: TiM Email: None To: brian Subject: perimeter of chaos Message:

Lucky you that you never discovered how insanely dangerous M's knowlege is seeing that he is only one-half of a Rodhami master. Unfortunately I did discover how dangerous a half guru's knowledge is. And I don't see why that premie who wants to push M down a flight of stairs is waiting for the right synchronicity to make it happen. The future is brightest when we stop waiting for providence and take things in our own hands. Did any premie ever receive balistics training in the military?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 07, 2000 at 23:57:07 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: TiM Subject: Rodhami? FA take note Message:

Look Tim, these thinly veiled threats just aren't gonna fly here so stop it now. This is completely out of line. Are you trying to get us shut down?

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