Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 08:49:02 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Jagdeo- They Knew For Years.. Message:

It’s never pleasant to be the bearer of bad news, and it’s with no pleasure whatsoever that I sit down to write this post. When I heard that Jagdeo had seriously sexually abused an eight-year-old girl who had been at Unity School, where I had been responsible for looking after children, I felt an impotent helplessness. It’s much easier to do nothing. You can tell yourself, “It’s not my responsibility. Her father knew. It’s something I want to go away. Somebody else will deal with it.” But it didn’t go away. It niggled, like a stone in my shoe. Sometimes it would move to the side, and I could think it was gone. But it always slipped back to irritate me. Eventually, when I wrote my “Journey”, I found an opportunity remove the stone. By “outing” Jagdeo, I was finally doing something about it, albeit very small. I had no idea what the repercussions would be, because the stone became a cat, and once it was out the bag, and no way was it going back in again. Even when the most expensive lawyers money can buy tried to put it away- they just got scratched. Very quickly after my story appeared at Ex-premie.org, two of Jagdeos victims contacted me. Both had carried the pain of what he’d done to them through their lives, and both of them wanted justice. Two vulnerable children had grown up into intelligent women, who had the courage to throw Jagdeos crimes back in his face. The cult’s response has been to backtrack and cover-up. When the rising pile of evidence became undeniable, their stand became, “Well if he was up to anything, we didn’t know anything about it.” My correspondence with Glen Whittaker shows that there is great concern within the cult, to emphasise that, if indeed anything did go on, Maharaji definitely knew nothing about it. We have reports from one victim, that while she was still a devotee, she asked two officials, Judy Osborne and Randy Prouty, to tell Maharaji that Jagdeo had assaulted her. Randy reported back and told her he had indeed told Maharaji, and was told that Maharaji already knew about it, quite possibly from Judy’s report. According to the cult, both Randy and Judy, “can’t remember” either being told, or telling Maharaji. We have a report that the father of a victim told Mahatma Gurucharanand, and asked him to tell Maharaji. This is all history. But I’m retelling it here, because I’ve received some more information, which has a direct bearing on what has happened so far. I was recently contacted by someone who attended many co-ordinator and instructor conferences in the 1970s and 1980s. I’ll call her Phyllis, but that’s not her real name. Phyllis told me that there were often nervous discussions between delegates at the conferences, about how Jagdeo had “got into trouble with small children”. These discussions took place between 1978 and 1985. The discussions were brief, and took place among small circles of premie co-ordinators and instructors. Jagdeos pedophilic activities were known about, and discussed, for at least seven years. But it looks like, after at least five years of complaints, the cult finally did something about it. His activities were wound down between 1983 and 1985 and Jagdeo was slowly withdrawn from touring in the West. Then from 1985 onwards he was restricted to touring Indian communities in the Far East. When the implications of this started to sink in, I felt physically ill. Phyllis told me that Jagdeo has since been “retired” and is living with his family in a small village. ____________________ In the past, when I’ve published information about Jagdeo, the cult have tried to discredit and dilute what I’ve said in several ways. It has been rumoured that I’ve tried to sell the Jagdeo story to the press, and that I’m “using Jagdeo to get at Maharaji”. There have been suggestions that the victims have been mistaken, they’ve exaggerated, or they’ve been lying. So, from the cult perspective I guess there are at least two possibilities. I made this story about Phyllis up myself- which would be extremely stupid of me- as it would discredit and devalue all the information that has already been published. The second possibility is that “Phyllis” is making it up and somehow duping me. All I can say at this point, is that my instincts and common sense tell me that Phyllis is not making this up. I trust her enough to go ahead and publish her information. Also, everything Phyllis has told me, supports and corroborates what we know already. One way of finding out if Phyllis is making it up, is to ask some of those co-ordinators from the 70s and 80s, who discussed Jagdeo, to come forward and confirm or deny the information. I can always ask Phyllis for a couple of names. Anth, angry and sad.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:45:55 (GMT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: AJW Subject: Jagdeo- They Knew For Years.. Message:

I never really liked Jagdeo anyway. In fact, I don't think he really practiced knowledge or had the proper understanding. As we all know from our experience with Maharaji's own family back in the 70s, no matter what position people might be in, if they lose that understanding, they are nothing more than the maggots that devour rancid wolverine droppings. Poor Maharaji. He has to put up with so much, despite his own heavenly perfection. He comes into this world to give people the experience of that gift, wanting nothing for himself besides the most meager basics for his bodily survival, like a delapidated house, and people around him sometimes lack understanding and do things that are less than helpful, perhaps even scattered and confused, like committing child abuse. If he weren't always experiencing divine and perfect bliss, I'm sure it would be really hard for him. Remember, he is so bodily fragile, he had an ulcer at the age of 13. Although Maharaji is all-knowing, the Jagdeo thing, if it is true which it probably isn't, it must have just never come to his attention, in a way that is beyond our simple brains to comprehend as part of his perfect plan. Or I am sure Maharaji would have done something about it, like giving Jagdeo a good talking-to and sending him to another continent, far away from the lotus feet. That would show him, and I'm sure Jagdeo suffered greatly having to go to the Far East, where there are millions of children, but where Maharaji hardly ever gave darshan. Child molestation would have been little consolation for being deprived of kissing Maharaji's feet for months on end. And I agree, it probably wasn't that bad. And what could Maharaji have done anyway, the poor dear? How dare you accuse him of committing criminal negligence and aiding and abbetting child abuse on the basis of just a number of eye-witness testimonies that corroborate each other. What kind of flimsy evidence is that? I don't think you can prove anything so nah, nah, nah. And thank you Turner, for pointing out that without penetration there probably wasn't any problem anyway, except from people who just want to complain about something. There are more important things to be concerned about like the new Visions design for coffee mugs with big swans on them. They are just divine.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 06:02:11 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: I Can See Clearly Now, The Rain Has Gone Message:

What would we do without your clarity, PP? Rancid wolverine droppings, yes, that's what we would be.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:49:51 (GMT) From: Anth is just lying about Email: None To: AJW Subject: a few things...........(nt) Message:

Which he knows himself

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 09:04:19 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Anth is just lying about Subject: Attention FA - Bjorn alert above... Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:30:44 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Monkey-ji. Subject: Hmmmmn Message:

What exactly are the 'few things' I'm lying about then premie-ji? And why are you hiding behind anonynimity? You are obviously upset about the latest revelations about your master and his pal- maybe it's time to have a long think about your life- because you've ended up in a cult and it's not doing you any good. You've ended up defending a child molestor. Not a great way to pass your time. Maybe you should get back under your meditation blanket, close your eyes and stick your thumbs in your ears. And if you can manage to keep your big mouth shut too- that will also be of benefit to you. Then you'll see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil. Anth who used to be a wise monkey too once.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:59:12 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: AJW Subject: Jagdeo- They Knew For Years.. Message:

Anth, Thank you for your post. For some reason I was touched by it. Marianne made a strong point and concluded that what has been said is true. I do not agree with that, as Jagdeo has not been proven guilty yet. I do not doubt what your are saying is true, neither I can find a reason why Phyllis should be making this up. Just a question though, is Phyllis still involved with EV? Can you ask Phyllis to post here. Take care, Salam

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:29:42 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Salam Subject: Phyllis Message:

Hi Salam, I'm not sure what Phyllis' involvement is with EV at the moment. She doesn't want to post on the forum but is happy to answer any questions I have for her. Anth the piggy in the middle

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:52:33 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: AJW Subject: Well, that is a question to ask, in-it Message:

What is her involvement at present? Why didn't she come to you earlier? Salam eating a piggy sandwich

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 15:49:41 (GMT) From: Patrick Email: None To: AJW Subject: What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama? Message:

Anth, I have been recently talking with my premie friends about this issue. Almost all of them seem (in varying degrees) to have had their consciences somewhat prodded by this Jagdeo issue. But, few seem willing to opine on what would have been the better or even correct way to deal with it. Of course since Maharaji is considered by them to be a sensitive, caring person they tend to assume that his response also must have been carefully and sensitively considered. There are clearly some things that suggest that this may not have been so much the case. Maharaji is clearly accused here of attempting to brush the matter under the carpet along with the 'delegates at the conferences' and 'co-ordinators' whom, according to your latest report, seem also to have been aware of the 'skeleton in the cupboard' for some years. Some would blame these premies perhaps for not reporting the matter sooner, most people would agree, I would have thought, that Maharaji, since he was informed on the situation, should have acted promptly, openly and decisively to curb Jagdeo's abuse. Blame aside, throughout this unfolding drama, I find myself also considering what all this really tells me about Maharaji and premies. Anyway, I met Michael Dettmer’s when he was passing through London recently and thus had the chance to talk with him directly about this and some other things that have bothered me and which I needed to 'hear from the horses mouth' as it were. Since he had strong opinions about what happened, the way it was subsequently handled and the implications of the whole issue, I don’t think he would object if I passed on here the gist of our discussion. I have to say that I found him in person, very strong in his convictions and able to put his points very clearly. I know he has already expressed himself very eloquently on this forum, but I think that some reiteration can only serve to stimulate more consideration of the broader implications of this matter. Firstly, I asked Michael whether he thought that Jagdeo was indeed a paedophile. He replied that he has had many conversations with Susan whose account he believed, and that as a result he considered that Jagdeo’s behaviour was clearly that of a paedophile. So then I then asked him what he thought should have happened . I found myself agreeing with his reply. He restated what many seem to generally agree - that Jadeo should have been interviewed directly by Maharaji. He said that it was an absolute sham for Elan Vital to suggest that the appropriate person to interview Jagdeo was the ‘National Organiser of India’ (someone apparently called ‘Deepak’). He pointed out that the Instructors have a lot more fear and concern about Maharaji than they do for any organiser. They were of course, definitely originally made instructors by Maharaji and thus could only realistically be ‘retired’ by him. So Maharaji, he went on, should have taken this seriously, sat Jagdeo down, got the facts and then acted. In short he should have publicly defrocked him. This would have been the responsible reaction. Michael was in no doubt that Maharaji should have turned Jagdeo over to suffer the legal consequences. Maharaji should have made a public statement of apology to everyone who has anything who has anything to do with him, making it clear that he was embarrassed and ashamed that such behaviour could have happened with one of his mahatmas. He should have also sought to find the victims, personally apologised to them and offered some form of restitution. That made sense to me. I agreed that this would surely be the appropriate response of someone in Maharaji’s position. So I finally asked Michael what he thought all this tells us about Maharaji. By this time Michael had rather warmed to his theme. I don’t think I was imagining that there was some disgust in his tone when he replied that this tells us Maharaji is a coward, and that he isn’t a leader whatsoever - that he’s not interested in doing the right thing but is concerned with ‘covering his ass’. Furthermore, he reckoned - this tells us that Maharaji lives in fear and that it is questionable whether he is worthy even of respect, let alone devotion.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:09:21 (GMT) From: dv Email: None To: Patrick Subject: What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama? Message:

M couldn't admit to any wrongdoing by one of his mahatmas on that level of 'misbehavior'. He knew it would damage his perpetuated myth that he controlled everything with his unasailable spritual power, thus threatening his money base.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:10:39 (GMT) From: Turner Email: None To: Patrick Subject: What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama? Message:

Look, pedophilia is a serious crime, but there are degrees of seriousness, as there are in any act of human degradation. I do not want to minimize the crime but want to get some perspective. Was there penetration? Was there battery? The most disturbing thing about Jagdeo’s alleged acts was the trust he abused while fulfilling his official role as emissary of EV/DLM - a trust vested in him by both the alleged victims and Maharaji. And although such behavior is loath-able, I do not judge him, nor do I judge Maharaji for his handling of the matter. I know the prevalent emotion in our world today is that the rights of children supercede just about all else. And children’s rights are certainly sacrosanct to most parents – I am one myself. But perspective is an important and often non-existent commodity in our world – as exemplified by the American election fiasco. Did you see “Saving Private Ryan”? Remember the scene where the well-meaning GI tried to rescue a little girl from a bombed-out building. He took action against the wishes of his CO and as a result he was killed by a sniper, which jeopardized the mission of the whole unit, not to mention the lives of everyone else. In the movie, the captain’s prime goal was the accomplishment of the unit’s mission; and the GI’s goal was saving the girl. Unfortunately the GI’s well-meaning lack of perspective risked failure on both goals. Such is the value of perspective. I am pissed off that Jagdeo could have had the gall to commit his acts while representing Maharaji. I am pissed off when someone abuses the trust of innocents. And believe me, I feel for anyone who was harmed by such disturbing behavior. And of course it would have been less fodder for controversy and therefore easier from a PR point of view if Maharaji had embarked on a course of action as prescribed by Dettmers. But not knowing the breadth and depth of the considerations Maharaji took into account when charting his course, neither Dettmers nor I am in a position to judge his decisions. I personally trust Maharaji – based on 25 years of witnessing the high level of integrity and wisdom that has been his hallmark – that any considerations around this issue were thoughtfully deliberated upon when facts were known, and he took a course of action that was in the best interest of the whole. In my opinion it would be out of character for him to handle the matter any differently. And if he did make a wrong decision along the way, I also grant him the latitude to do so. Whether or not he wants to admit his mistakes to me is his choice. Trust is what it all comes down to here. And this absurd claim that Maharaji is a coward again lacks perspective. True, he did not address this issue in a manner that was acceptable to such notable ex-honchos as Michael Dettmers, or in a manner that conforms to the current public geist. But it certainly cannot be said of Maharaji that he is a coward. This is a man who at age 13 and with no one to accompany him but one assistant took his mission around the world against all odds. He went against his mother, his culture, and just about everything a normal 13 year old looks to for validation to take his message and the mission given to him by his father to a world that was very unsupportive of his efforts. Along the way he has withstood uncountable challenges to his very existence, and he is still standing. No, this is not a coward we are talking about. An enigma yes, but no coward.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 19:45:16 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Turner Subject: Integrity and Wisdom? Message:

Your comments on the scale of Jagdeo's offences and quibbling over whether pentration occurred are repulsive Turner, and I suggest you read John T's reply below carefully. You speak of Maharaji's 'wisdom' and 'integrity' without offering examples. We have all read a mountain of evidence from people better placed than you portraying an insecure, socially inadequate, self-centred individual who wouldn't know integrity if it leaped up and bit him on the arse. Did you read Michael Dettmer's accound of Prem storming out of that restaurant in a jealous rage, his kids in tow, and driving home drunk, his car weaving all over the road? The words 'reckless' and 'grossly irresponsible' come to mind. How would you categorise such behaviour?

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 14:11:44 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Turner Subject: What we learn about Turner Message:

TURNER: Look, pedophilia is a serious crime, but there are degrees of seriousness, as there are in any act of human degradation. I do not want to minimize the crime but want to get some perspective. Was there penetration? Was there battery? The most disturbing thing about Jagdeo’s alleged acts was the trust he abused while fulfilling his official role as emissary of EV/DLM - a trust vested in him by both the alleged victims and Maharaji. And although such behavior is loath-able, I do not judge him, nor do I judge Maharaji for his handling of the matter. Turner claims The most disturbing thing about Jagdeo’s alleged acts was the trust he abused.... I would not want to quibble whether the physical acts of sex procured by Jagdeo from Rawat's devotees and their children are more disturbing than Jagdeo's abuse of postion and authority in order to get the sex. You see, we do not know how far Jagdeo has taken his perversion, and part of what we are about (and Rawat and his organisations are avoiding) is to find out what the creep actually did. That he did far more than Rawat and his minions are willing to concede is already clear. But Turner, you cannot say The most disturbing thing about Jagdeo’s alleged acts was the trust he abused... and then talk about the physical details. Like, either the abuse of position and betrayal of innocence is the most disturbing thing or it was the acts themselves. The impression of confusion and stinking thinking is fortified by the strange remark although such behavior is loath-able, I do not judge him... Turner would have us believe that he or she loaths, that is, feels revulsion and disgust for Jagdeo's activities (and presumably the conspirators who covered up over many years for Jagdeo) but that Turner does this in a non-judgemental way. What do you mean, Turner? TURNER: not knowing the breadth and depth of the considerations Maharaji took into account when charting his course, neither Dettmers nor I am in a position to judge his decisions. But no-one ever knows the breadth and depth of the considerations another uses when deciding what to do. We only know what they tell us! Unless Turner is the sort of idiot that claims never to make judgements there is a double standard here - one law for the cult and its insiders - another for the cult fodder. We all make judgements, Turner. Your judgement on the situation is that you don't know enough to make a judgement; nor does anyone else; and they are wrong to judge that Rawat and his minions are co-conspirators to years of child abuse which they knew about and chose to ignore. TURNER: I personally trust Maharaji – based on 25 years of witnessing the high level of integrity and wisdom that has been his hallmark – that any considerations around this issue were thoughtfully deliberated upon when facts were known, and he took a course of action that was in the best interest of the whole. In my opinion it would be out of character for him to handle the matter any differently. And if he did make a wrong decision along the way, I also grant him the latitude to do so. Whether or not he wants to admit his mistakes to me is his choice. Trust is what it all comes down to here. Whatever Rawat has displayed over the last 25 years it certainly hasn't been a high level of integrity and wisdom. That's why this website achieves more in promulgating the techniques to interested persons than does Rawat with all his millions of dollars and international organisation! Understand Turner, that you use your personal regard for Rawat to argue that if he protected a pedophile that was preying on the children of his devotees then that is OK in perspective, understood in the context of His Mission. In the context of your Master's Mission (to bring peace to the world, wasn't it, and feed the hungry) the child abuse was small beer, perhaps a price that had to be paid? Leaving aside your perverion of morality to excuse child abuse, the fact is that the damage is real, but Rawat's promises, used by you to excuse the abuse (or to 'put in perspective') -- those promises have not been kept, nor is there any sign Rawat takes them seriously. Indeed, there is every indication he wishes to ignore them, and pretend they were never made. Turner excuses the Master's complicity in child abuse on the strength of the Masters lies! Cowards lie and hide behind those they fool. Rawat is a coward and he hides behind Turner, who is Rawat's fool.   J'accuse

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 20:42:18 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Turner Subject: A Question for Turner Message:

Turner: You said, 'I do not want to minimize the crime but want to get some perspective. Was there penetration? Well, since you've mentioned you're a father, perhaps you can answer this question, and perhaps understand the point trying to be made here regarding the seriousness of Jagdeo's actions. If Jagdeo, or anyone for that matter, molested your child, but didn't penetrate, would you not be enraged? Or would you stand up in court protecting your child's molester by offering the defense that your child wasn't penetrated, therefore the seriousness of the crime is much less harmful to your child, and therefore the molester should be dealt with accordingly? Would you seriously think that the damage done to your child was mitigated by lack of penetration? It's okay, Little Johnny/Susie, he didn't stick his dick into you, so you're all right. How's that sound to you? Not good, I bet. But that's what you seem to be implying is the case with your specious remark about degrees of degradation. Give it a thought. And yes, Maharaji knew about Jagdeo, but rerouted the perv to Asia, when he should've permanently removed Jagdeo from any circulation. Also, Bjorn, bug off, and don't think of getting involved here.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:23:05 (GMT) From: Interesting thing Email: None To: Monmot Subject: is what really happened Message:

The only 'in detail evidence' from one victims that exist is that Jagdeo touched the breasts and buttocks of a 15 year old girl. That is according to her, what happened. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 01:33:07 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Interesting thing Subject: is what really happened Message:

Bjorn, if this is you, and I think it is: That may be what happened to one 15-year old girl, but it is not what happened to others whom Jagdeo molested--much more serious transgressions occurred to them. And I know for a fact there exists another person whom Jagdeo seriously transgressed. Read Abi's journey if you'd like more 'in detail' information, which is why I think you're Bjorn. You get off on the details.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:30:28 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Turner Subject: Francis or Anne Turner ??? nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 09:40:25 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Turner Subject: A couple of questions Turner. Message:

Hi Turner, I can understand the difficulty you're having coming to terms with your master's fallibility. I hope you don't mind answering a couple of questions. Knowing how the organisation works, do you believe Maharaji knew what Jagdeo was up to by 1985? If he did know, why was Jagdeo sent to the Far East and allowed to continue touring, in a full time role as instructor, where he could continue abusing his power as he had done before? Anth, looking for some answers.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 03:39:01 (GMT) From: Freedom of Information Email: None To: Turner Subject: What can we learn from this Abortion drama? Message:

Hmmm. What degree of Penetration ? Turner, what about 2 abortions in the mid Nineties with his full time mistress, Monica Lewis ? Do you swallow that one as caring, level headed behavior. As he travels the world bravely spreading ...? What ? His mistresses legs ?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 22:55:53 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Freedom of Information Subject: Are u suggesting Maharaji was not shooting blanks? Message:

I heard that with Monica Lewis, Maharaji refused to wear condoms, and so Monica got pregnant, twice. Was there some reason Monica didn't/couldn't use other birth control? Another interesting piece of hypocrisy. I recall two separate premie couples in which the woman was pregnant, and in both cases they got married because they were told that Maharaji was adamantly opposed to abortion. Apparently, several people had asked Maharaji about this and he was violently against it. So, in at least on of the cases, the premies (both who had been ashram premies) got married and embarked on very short and miserable marriages that ended quite quickly.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 13:57:16 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Freedom of Information Subject: What can we learn from this Abortion drama? Message:

Where did you get this information from?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:43:56 (GMT) From: Freedom of information Email: None To: Salam Subject: What can we learn from this Abortion drama? Message:

From 2 people,one intimately involved. It is true, but all I can reveal. I am a regular poster here, but must be anon on this.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:32:42 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Freedom of information Subject: Anonymous information needs corroboration... Message:

Otherwise it's just a rumor.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:01:53 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Freedom of information Subject: OK, I accept that you may be trying to protect Message:

someone, that is probably still close to rawat, but Can you say when was it? Where did it take place? Intimate in what way? Anyone else knows about this? Do you know if rawat still banging Monica?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:12:47 (GMT) From: dv Email: None To: Turner Subject: There is a fine line between bravery, and Message:

stupidity.

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:22:42 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Turner Subject: Whoops! Sparks will fly, back later nt Message:

You just stirred up a hornet's nest! kelly

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 22:35:24 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Turner Subject: Back to the fJagdeo issue Message:

Turner, Don't start with that stuff about degrees of degradation, and was there penetration? bs!. The main thing is that it was sexual ABUSE, and the worst thing about it was that it was an abuse of power. I think ,at least you recognise this, but you do not give it the full credence and weight that it deserves. Jagdeo, in his special, honoured and respected position as a 'mahatma' had the perfect opportunity to perpetrate his perverted pleasure, he had the power, and who gave him that power? Who made him a mahatma? Make no mistake about that, it came from one place only. So who was ultimately reponsible when complaints were made? As for your assertion that M treats any complaints responsibly and considerately..Hmmmm not according to what I've seen and heard. And you, have you read the accounts of the victims? I don't think you can have, or you would not be so insensitive. Kelly

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 20:28:33 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Turner Subject: Turner: Bullshit!! Maharaji's a coward, you don't Message:

know what you're talking about. Maharaji called himself the Lord, Perfect Master, Creator of Peace yet he certainly had no interest in protecting innocent children from Jagdeo. Now we know he's just a person, (and that's questionable). He did nothing he and is reponsible because at the time he had total control over Jagdeo, regardless of his age. A co-conspirator to cover up heinous crimes against children. A coward. That you would imply that Maharaji's ''divine mission'' was more important (RE: your Saving Private Ryan analogy) than the health, safety, and well being of children is unconscionable. If you know something, it is your responsibility to talk. No excuses. I don't want to hear it happened so long ago. Sexual abuse hurts people throughout their lives. Period. No Excuses!!! You have no idea what sexual abuse does to children, obviously. No Excuses!! Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:42:39 (GMT) From: Turner Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I think not Message:

For your information I am keenly aware of how abuse affects children - I have two close family members who are dealing with sexual abuse as we speak. You claim he had no interest in protecting children. I disagree. He has always set very high standards of conduct for his representatives, with real consequences if they are not met. This is a case where one of these representatives stepped outside the boundary of those standards. Contrary to what you so emotionally conveyed, Maharaji has no control over anybody. If someone chooses to step outside of those boundaries, how can he prevent that. This is not a situation where he chose between allowing child abuse for the sake of his mission. It is a situation where he is called to deal with the fallout of circumstance that had already occurred. As for your comments about the importance of a mission over the “health, safety, and well being of children”, I guess that depends on the mission. As I said, nothing he could have done could have prevented what had already occurred. It is how he has dealt with it after the fact that is the controversy for you guys. The United States military would kill 100 men and women to save one child. They then turn around and sanction countries that don’t toe their party line. And who do you think suffers most? It is the children! Every day the world makes a choice to put its missions over the well-being of children. Why? Because the world believes in its missions. I mean if they really cared about children they would never go to war. Cynthia, you do not believe in Maharaji’s mission – he passionately does. Teach people to respect life; give a thirsty person real hope; show people the peace within that is their birthright; give people a real alternative. How many children do you think would benefit from such a mission? And besides, neither you nor anybody else have any idea what measures he did take to deal with the alleged perpetrator or “protect” the safety of others.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:34:01 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Turner Subject: What Maharaji did. Message:

Turner, We know exactly what Maharaji eventually did about the Jagdeo matter. He sent him off to the Far East where he could continue his digusting lifestyle- funded by the premies whose children he was abusing. Nobody is even disputing this. Anth trying to dispell the fudge.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 01:03:33 (GMT) From: brian too Email: None To: Turner Subject: I think not Message:

Turner, you are absolutely right on all counts, I feel very much the same as you do regarding the issue of assigning responsibility. No matter what guidelines or mandates a leader issues as policy it still comes down to the personal choice of each and every person within that structure to honor them. Back then mahatma's took vows of chasity, Even so, It is impossible to police the intentions and actions of anyone in your charge if they decide to freak out. There was a gross violation of trust that took place here and it is on Jagdeo. He alone should stand acountable for these allegations, and if guilty, his head should roll.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:40:10 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: brian too Subject: Take your head out the sand brian too Message:

brian too, You're avoiding the issue here. Maharaji knew in 1985 (do you think there is any doubt about this?) In full knowledge of what he was up to, Jagdeo was then sent to the Far East to continue exactly as he had been carrying on in the West. Did you know Maharaji has known Jagdeo since he was a little boy-and Jagdeo was often described as a 'friend of the family'? Come on, stop denying what's plain for all to see. It makes you look pathetic. Anth

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 08:05:00 (GMT) From: brian too Email: None To: AJW Subject: I am not denying Message:

what M knew or when he knew it. I am saying that it will be hard to make a case in court stick against anyone other than Jaegdeo. I know that this same sort of child abuse has occurred within the Catholic church, there are many reported cases that have been settled already and others in litigation. A few priests have gone down, but not the Pope, and many of the Bishops have escaped personal responsibility for the damage inflicted by child abusers who were in their charge. No harm in shaking the tree to see who falls out though.

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Date: Sat, Dec 16, 2000 at 10:26:31 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: brian too Subject: I am not denying Message:

what I'm talking about is nothing to do with court. And your post above, supportive of Turner, doesn't mention court either. It's about the hamster knowing what Jagdeo was doing, then sending him to the Far East where he could continue without attracting the attention he had in the West. Somthing like that. Because if Maharaji knew, why did he send Jagdeo to the Far East where he could continue his crimes against children? anth trying to get to the point.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 10:52:56 (GMT) From: Interesting thing Email: None To: AJW Subject: IF MAHARAJI KNEW,...MICHAEL IS GUILTY AS WELL(NT) Message:

NT

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 16:34:12 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Interesting thing Subject: Wrong Bollock-Brain- It's you who is guilty. Message:

Hey Fuckface, Stop hinting that I'm lying without stating what my lies are. Stop trying to blame the soldiers when the buck stops with the one who gives the orders. You really are a pathetic, anonymous creep. By trying to protect and cover up for Jagdeo- you are actually complicit in his crimes. Why are you trying to protect him? Why are you trying to smear the people making these accusations. Are you a pedophile yourself? Fuck off back to your fucked-up Master. Anth

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 11:33:21 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Interesting thing Subject: Would you explain why ? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 12:17:32 (GMT) From: Interesting thing Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: WHY MICHAEL IS GUILTY, IF ANTH TELLS THE TRUTH? Message:

That is if 'Phyllis' tells the truth? Read the title in this topic and Anths post. If 'they knew for years', then you as an instructor might also be guilty in an group activity. This group (of instructors and national contacts) according to Phyllis sent a pedophile person on tour, knowing he sexually abused shildren. (So the activity to abuse children might go on????) And dont try to tell me that if Phyllis (Anths) story is true, then Michael Dettmer did not know about it. But has Anth lied on many occations regarding this case??????

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Date: Fri, Dec 15, 2000 at 02:12:37 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Interesting thing Subject: Stop shouting you asshole Message:

I hope you read Micheal's post above. That put a stop on you deductive logic. You are brommie, I mean bimbo aren't you. Fuck off like everyone is telling you.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 19:28:09 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Interesting thing Subject: fuck off Bjorn !!!!! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 14:07:29 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Interesting thing Subject: Looks like you've never been much involved in EV Message:

otherwise you'd know how information is circulated ! Specially that sort of embarrassing stuff !! No doubt some group of coordinators knew about it, I guess we'll know sooner or later, but that doesn't mean everybody knew !!! Usually you don't know ANYTHING outside your service field.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:26:39 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Turner Subject: Turner or whoever, I think yes Message:

Your two themes, my speaking with emotion (which, I suppose, isn't allowed in the Maharaji's cult), plus your statement ''I think not,'' both prove that you are confused and can't think or emote correctly. As Marianne said, if you think you're so right about something, then have the courage to state your name. If you do know something about the sexual abuse by Jagdeo, then you have a moral imperative to speak out. No excuse. Nothing you wrote above convinced me of anything. No mission is worth the life and well being of any child, or any person, for that matter. Remember the innocents. Sincerely, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:34:46 (GMT) From: To Cynthia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Remember the innocent. Message:

What if Jagdeo is innocent of the accusations?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 00:52:33 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: To Pedophile Apologist Subject: The gall of you! FA???? Message:

Is that you, Bjorn??? FA, please take a look at this post to see who made it. You know what should have happened years ago, and should still happen now, Mr. Pedophile Apologist? EV should tell the authorities about the complaints made against its legal representative and ask them to sort it out. They won't though, because they are afraid of their own legal, financial responsibility for Jagdeo. If they weren't afraid, why not notify law enforcement authorities in all the countries where Jagdeo traveled as a mahatma -- just to be on the safe side? Let the cops, in all the countries in which Jagdeo travelled, decide, after an exhaustive investigation in which all the victims have been interviewed. And let prosecutors interview the victims too. That's when this thing will get fairly sorted out. Maybe it's not Bjorn. Is that you, Rotwat? Marianne

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 21:53:46 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Turner Subject: No credibility til you identify yourself Message:

Your posts have no weight here, Mr. Apologist. Tell us who you are and your various functions in the cult (if any) and maybe we will listen. Until then, what you have to say is of no value to this discussion whatsoever. Marianne

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 19:23:50 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What can we learn from this Jagdeo drama? Message:

Everyone: that includes premies, ex-premies, PAMs and especially Maharaji Wasn't Judy Osborne a midwife? Was she certified? Today, such a health practitioner would be bound to the laws in all states which mandate reporting child abuse, particularly child sexual abuse. Furthermore, she must be bound by ethical and moral behavior, which in my opinion, mandates a health care provider, and all of us, for that matter, to report any and all child abuse. There's not question about it. Anth, you were not at some school, you were in a cult school. You did and continue to do everything possible to remedy this unjust situation. AND, Maharaji, you should have immediately called the police the moment you heard of such injurious crimes! Shame on you. What kind of person are you that you would risk the lives of innocent children from the crimes of a pedophile, to protect your ''reputation.'' And to any of you honchos, and you know who you are, you must tell. That is the ONLY moral thing to do. There's no discussion about this. We're talking about child sex abuse here. No excuses!!! EV/DLM and Maharaji must act now--they bear the same responsibility. With more and more validation and evidence, it would be wise for them to come clean now. Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 16:55:51 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Anth Subject: DLM/EV should go to the police NOW Message:

Wel, well, well, Anth. The plot thickens. Now we know that Jagdeo's colleagues, the other touring mahatmas and instructors, knew about his sexual abuse of minors. I cannot imagine that Jagdeo's travels could have been curtailed except from the top, and that the decision to limit his travels was done in direct response to his criminal sexual misbehavior. So this information actually supports Susan's report that she told and that M knew long ago. What is greatly disturbing is that Jagdeo was allowed to act in any capacity at all for the organization after this information was known. I suspect that there are victims in India and the Far East from this time period. Of course, EV's FAQ's are being shown to be more and more misleading and outright false as time passes. That misleading information was published on their website could certainly have implications for any criminal and civil litigation that may be initiated. Lastly, M and those in DLM/EV could AND SHOULD go to the police in the places where Jagdeo traveled and advise them about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of minors and ask them to investigate. It is not too late for them to do something to right this terrible wrong committed by one of the 'Lord's' most trusted disciples. Don't hold your breath on that one. Everything concerning Jagdeo just gets more sickening and makes the cult look so much worse the more that gets revealed. It's not just M who is a coward here either -- it's all you premies around M and those in high positions at EV reading these posts and filing them away every day. You are cowards too because you know about this and are doing nothing about it. Someday soon, one of you is going to be so bothered by your conscience, you will do something. Let's hope it's sooner rather than later. Remember karma? Marianne

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:35:40 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Marianne Subject: DLM/EV should go to the police NOW Message:

'No person, knowing that a felony has been or is being committed, shall knowingly fail to report such information to law enforcement authorities.' Isn't failing to do so called 'aiding and abetting'? . . . . (PS, did you get my email?)

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 18:03:41 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Remember karma? To all premies: Message:

To anyone in EV who is reading this: In her letter above, Marianne said 'remember karma?' while urging you to do the right thing with respect to the Jagdeo atrocities. Now, perhaps you are now a modern premie who has 'thrown off the hindu trappings' and no longer believe in karma (although you might secretly dream of a crown and lotus feet to kiss like in the good ole days?). Since karma is a sanskrit word, and therefore you may feel that you are beyond such outdated concepts, let me redefine it for you. It's also known as the golden rule. It is a principle that seems to matter to human beings on a soul level that says that you should treat everyone the way you would wish to be treated. There is a vast body of research into the near-unanimous reports of people all over the world from all cultures and religions who have NDEs (near-death experiences). Surprisingly, to the researchers, one of the most prevalent themes is that when the person goes through their life review, they find themselves reliving all the events in their lives in great detail, FROM The POINT Of VIEW Of THE PEOPLE AFFECTED BY THEM. They return to their lives chastened, and determined to make amends. I was quite surprised to read this research, having also 'gone beyond' the corny idea of karma, but it seems as if this 'Golden Rule' is not just someone's concept, but a very deep principle that humans live by at the deepest levels. So if you are in any way covering up, aiding or abetting the sex crimes of Jagdeo, whether by default, by 'not remembering' or any other 'non-method' such as secretly believing that 'your higher purpose is to protect Maharaji,' or that 'this is just those hostile ex-premies trying to stir up the shit' please think again. In my opinion, if you are following MJ in any capacity - long-distance, just as an occasional 'teacher' or just with a sentimental feeling from the past, you are participating in covering up these crimes, and THIS HURTS THE CHILDREN WHO WERE ABUSED. Or perhaps you think the whole thing was no big deal ('hey - DOZENS of Krishna kids were sexually abused, what's the big deal?'). Sexual abuse by an older person can devastate a child's whole life. Add to this that this was a trusted older person, an emissary of God, in whom these children's parents believed and in some cases still believe, and you might be able to imagine how deep the damage goes. Wake up, premies! This is your spiritual opportunity. Hold your master to task on this. Demand a truthful resolution. If you are truly on a spiritual path and you know these facts (and most of you do - I am an ex-premie and I clearly remember this as having been common knowledge, even before this website detailed the facts) then YOU HAVE NO CHOICE but to take responsibility for this. The reason it is able to happen and continue to be covered up is because you have given your power away to an unethical conman who doesn't have the integrity and honesty or human caring to deal with it. By telling the truth about this, to each other and to him, you can actually help the victims, including innumerable suspected other victims of the Jagdeo holocaust who are still in hell unable to tell their truth, because you continue to hold up this whole edifice of denial with your complicit support. At one point in your life, taking knowledge was the challenge that the universe or 'life' presented. Then perhaps it was to be able to give up your ego and experience devotion. Now it is to take your power back and tell the truth. This really is a holocaust, for the lives of the children involved. It is common knowledge that pedophiles continue their crimes. Jagdeo has never been curtailed -- he is even now attended by adoring 15-year old girls! Have you ever fantasized about how you would be the Schindler person, doing the right thing in the presence of strong mind-control and apparent danger to your wellbeing? All you have to lose is the identity crutch that knowledge, Maharaji and your membership of this cult have given you. The feeling of being special. Those of us who have left can guarantee you that there is a much greater feeling of self-love available on the other side. In love, Disculta

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 07:36:09 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Disculta Subject: Since you mentioned that Message:

Since you mentioned NDEs and people's experiences, it should be pointed out that those supposedly bad things which people did in their lives and for which they felt sorry about - such things were missed out of the life review empathy experience. Also, the positive effects of one's actions was also felt and in most cases this far outweighed any negatives. I don't want people to think they have to be perfect.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 14, 2000 at 17:38:43 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Since you mentioned that Message:

No, I don't want people to think they have to be perfect, either. My fave book on this (because it's more scientific) is 'Lessons from the Light' by Kenneth Ring (who has written several books on the subject). Reading this I have the impression that people Do feel it ALL (good or bad). There's an example I remember of a man who actually described reliving a moment in his childhood when he purposely stomped on his aunt's plants. He 'knew' that what he was doing was 'wrong' (i.e. would hurt her feelings). In his life review, he felt what it had felt like to her, as if from inside her body. His realization was that we are all connected and need to be incredibly kind. I was quite taken aback by all this; I am into a very kind and forgiving idea about life and people, and wouldn't want to use this stuff to guilt-trip anyone (except perhaps people supporting child-abusers). I guess my aversion at first when reading the book was to the whole idea of 'morality' ––however, there was no morality expressed, except the awareness of the effect of one's actions on other beings. Some of the NDE books are based on one person's NDE, and written through the lens of their belief systems. But Ring's books are based on thousands of accounts, and have some interesting experimental components. For example, they made a special study of blind people's NDEs, and found that they had 'seen' the whole operating theater in correct detail, and in many cases, described the roof of the hospital etc. Fascinating stuff. Love, the imperfect one

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Date: Wed, Dec 13, 2000 at 16:40:55 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Patrick Subject: remember the first sattilite feed from london? Message:

It was right at the time we were making the assaults on his offices about the jagdeo issue and making them respond. Rawat got very angry on the sattelite feed speech at one point when he said something like 'stop criticising .......' Do you remember? We were told the qoute here and viewers of the feed were jolted by it. He was refering to criticism of someone in the org. I was sure the anger was at us and the staffer was jagdeo.

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