Deputy Dog -:- Please define an 'ex' (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:33:42 (EST)

__ Keith -:- undefined territory -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:34:31 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Is it just a coincidence? -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:34:26 (EST)

__ __ cq -:- Just a small clarification, Keith -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:19:58 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- Very respectful post Keith -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:50:27 (EST)

__ __ Paranoid-EX -:- Re: undefined territory -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:31:24 (EST)

__ __ __ gerry -:- I share your 'paranoia' actually -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:51:12 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: I share your 'paranoia' actually -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:44:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- PS ...especially -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:57:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ paranoid ex -:- Very well expressed -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:58:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hey fellas, how 'bout this line: -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:17:01 (EST)

__ __ Gail -:- Easy for you to say, Keith, but... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:30:49 (EST)

__ __ Pullaver -:- Re: undefined territory -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:29:18 (EST)

__ __ Marianne -:- Dear Keith -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:56:53 (EST)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Thanks Keith -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:47:39 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- Re: undefined territory indeed -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:26:35 (EST)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Agreed Ggerry, 'clever' scam [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:42:00 (EST)

__ __ Loaf -:- I agree keith.. thankyou -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:13:05 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, you're so right, Loaf -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:35:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- and you are so right jim -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:28:28 (EST)

__ AJW -:- I once was lost... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:35:02 (EST)

__ Sulla -:- Today is my B-day. Happy new year!!!!!!!! -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:29:42 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Happy birthday, Sulla -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:43:26 (EST)

__ __ __ Sulla -:- Thanks! You made my day... -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:43:02 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Please define an 'ex' - okay -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:11:17 (EST)

__ Jim -:- First you had to have been a premie -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:42:19 (EST)

__ __ Depuity Dog -:- Very glib, but seriously Jim -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:58:59 (EST)

__ __ __ janet -:- Re: seriously -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:50:17 (EST)

__ __ __ Suedoula -:- Re: Very glib, but seriously Jim -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:32:23 (EST)

__ __ __ Gail -:- Re: Very glib, but seriously Jim -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:43:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Good point Gail -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:41:51 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- How did you survive 1977-1985??? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:57:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Gail -:- Remember the Dog Story? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:17:58 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Real question: what is a premie? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:07:25 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Real question: what is a premie? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:33:51 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Pullaver -:- Re: Real question: what is a premie?? -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:40:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Gotta jump in here! -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:18:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ housemum -:- Love this, Disculta ! (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:46:25 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ****BEST OF FORUM***** -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:46:55 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah who agrees -:- ****BEST OF FORUM***** [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:29:44 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Here's what you never got, Dog -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:04:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Here's what you never got, Dog -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:45:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks but no thanks -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:40:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ OTS -:- You stepped in your own stuff, Dog -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:01:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: You stepped in your own stuff, Dog -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 18:09:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You are insufferably trite -:- Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:31:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, that's Dale Carnegie [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:13:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Even worse! :) [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:42:36 (EST)

__ Jerry -:- Elementary -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:37:16 (EST)

__ cq -:- Indefinable. Definitely. (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:29:42 (EST)

__ __ cq -:- but seriously - -:- Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:02:18 (EST)

Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 10:33:42 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: All Subject: Please define an 'ex' (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:34:31 (EST) From: Keith Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: undefined territory Message:

Hello! My son was a longtime premie, then an ex-premie. It seems to me that he was first caught in the attractive superstitious,supernatural trap of a young messianic Guru Maharaji, but on the positive spin. Then many years later, after learning of myriad deceptions (on the ex-premie website), he reacted and approached the guru from the other side - negative energy. Of course, he probably doesn't agree. Nevertheless, it seems that some people are still trapped; they are defining themselves in reactive and negative terms, within the anti definitions and limitations of the anti-guru theology. In this predicament, a person is still being dictated by the guru, but rather in a negative, reactive, and potentially unhealthy role, clinically speaking. Now,I am just a retired counsellor who does not know very much about cults. (Although, my wife and I were quite concerned after the Jonestown incident in the 1970s.) So, please forgive my ignorance. Naturally, we were both shocked to see the information at that other website (where I found this link), some of which we suspected, anyway, as regards the money. At any rate, I have discussed this subject in the past with other mental health care-givers (and all of us at length, in our family). My own conclusions: the ex-premie website and this forum page may provide a helpful, and even necessary, way-station for those requiring some cult deprogramming. However, except for those persons who administer these sites or serve as deprogrammers, it might actually be harmful for others to regard these sites as some kind of final destination. (Again, I may well be mistaken; this might be a club, perhaps, too?) Yet, from the analyses of my colleagues, I must conclude that if one's goal is to be free of the guru's monkey trap, then after realizing the facts, a sensible person must gradually wean oneself from the psychological clutches apparent in a reverse mode of animosity, too (however clearly understandable, and for which I sympathize). To do otherwise, however, logically places an individual in a dualistic and perhaps destructive mentality. Persons leaving other cults have experienced these same difficulties, incidentally. If the alleged goal is to actually be free of the guru and his ideology, and to rid oneself of dysfunctional codependency or consuming hatred, then at some point a comprehending person will decide to move forward healthily in life, leaving behind the remaining vestiges of the cult conditioning, in a new-found and full awareness and freedom. Certainly, it appears that while some have benefitted from meditation itself, many persons were greatly harmed by the guru and his church. For what it's worth, I would hope that ex-premies and premies alike move forward and fulfill the remainder of their lives, consciously shedding and ridding themselves of group conditioning and conformity. As long as one is trapped in either a pro or anti Guru Maharaji mindset, though, there is no genuine freedom from the guru or his cult's abuses (or from the gradual effects of a similar anti doctrine). There is so much more to life, anyway. I hope these observations don't offend anyone's sensitivities. Thank you to those responsible for providing a website where my son was able to deprogram and then move on, leaving the guru behind. Also, we strongly recommend professional counselling for anyone leaving a cult, or having difficulties dealing with this situation. Good luck! Sincerely, Keith

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:34:26 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Is it just a coincidence? Message:

Keith, Is it just a happy coincidence that your advice is exactly the same as Maharaji's: 'if you don't like it, shut up about it and leave him alone'? Funny, huh? First, I don't buy any of that 'codependency', 'reactive' or 'dualism' psychobabble. It doesn't really mean anything although it gives people who use it a false sense that they're really saying something. They're not. You say you're a retired counsellor? I'm sure this kind of jargon is a wonderful lubricant for counselling but so much of counselling is smoke and mirrors anyway. Well, this is part of the smoke, in my opinion. Beyond that, though, you have no idea what we all do in life, how full or empty our lives are or why. Also, you don't know what each of us individually gets out of our involvement here. Surely it's different for different people and changes even for each one of us, perhaps, over time. You know nothing about any of that. Also, you say nothing at all about how your prescription affects the cult itself. Why?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 07:19:58 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Keith Subject: Just a small clarification, Keith Message:

When you speak of your son 'learning of myriad deceptions (on the ex-premie website)' - I hope! you don't mean to imply that the ex-premie website was the source of the deception. It just sounded that way, when I read through your post the first time. Regards Chris

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:50:27 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Keith Subject: Very respectful post Keith Message:

THank you for sharing your insights. This forum is dynamic and seems to find it's own equilibrium. And that point of equilbrium constantly shifts to accomodate new people, the latest spin by M's PR or himself, and the longer we are here. It is not driven by administration. The club- look is because we have all crossed paths and speak the same language. We were all in the same cult, maybe the same festival, sometimes the same ashram or non-ashram residence. I'm glad you're son straightened his head out. And the premies or exes or returning drifters come here and spend as much time as they need. Some of the original posters are still here and influence the board to a certain degree. However the agenda is always the same. And the agenda is really quite simple. To use this environment to discuss, reveal, review, process, anything and/or everything about our involvement through the years. Do not forget that the cult environment was intentionally isolationistic. Also not to mention that our vocabulary was teeming with loaded language. Giving us convenient double meanings of words. We could talk to the world with our old body but had created a new body (a double) that could justify our perceived experience. You had some very considerate things to say and I respect your input. Be well and thank you for sharing your concern, deborah

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:31:24 (EST) From: Paranoid-EX Email: None To: Keith Subject: Re: undefined territory Message:

Keith, i am a paranoid ex. You sound like a premie trying to get your foot in here. Prove me wrong and give us you real name. If you are that person who is a repected retired coucellor, I am sure you won't mind.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:51:12 (EST) From: gerry Email: gkl1@techline.com To: Paranoid-EX Subject: I share your 'paranoia' actually Message:

My 'bullshit detector' was screaming when I first read Keith's post. Upon reading it again today I share your suspicions that this may well be a premie trying another tact. The post is 'reasonable' and 'authoritative' at first blush, but a second reading makes it obvious that the writer has an agenda. First, if this person really had a son who was a cult member for years and escaped with the help of EPO, this dad would be jumping up and down with true joy and graditude and would be thanking us profusely, not damning us with faint praise. That's only human nature. His agenda is to 'warn us away' from the 'anti-cult.' How many times have we heard this bullshit before? He and his colleagues all agree. So yeah, tell us your credentials and those of your buddies before we are encouraged to accept your premise, Keith. If you are real Keith, email me at the above address. I keep confidences very well, ask anyone here. Or get someone here to vouch for you. Otherwise you are history, my friend.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:44:29 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: I share your 'paranoia' actually Message:

Like I said Gerry, seems like a 'clever' scam to me. The whole point of'Keiths' post is to influence the ever increasing number of people using EPO and the FORUM to STOP doing so!! Comes across as fake baloney to me, as soon as I read it. I'd bet it's a premie. Maybe even a premie with instructions from you-know-who. Could be wrong of course but with his 'son' involved and with the help of EPO etc mentioned AND with his line of work, you'd think he'd provide some real contact and proof. The post is coated with sugar but contains arsenic. No, as far as I can see at this point, 'Keith' wants to diminish the activity( active/lurking) of the forum. Well that's what my bullshit detector tells me. It's not ALWAYS right but...... Cheers Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:57:48 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Dermot Subject: PS ...especially Message:

You have to remember, only recently at the anniversary event in Nottingham, M said 'He doesn't mind losing a few battles but he WILL win the war' and he was referring to his detractors. Now, only a little while after Nottingham, M is streamlining the outer, physical vestiges of the cult to almost nothing (content with the psychological hold he has, providing also a good revenue can be worked out). Therefore his 'nothing' website and all his other external stuff show no sign of ANYTHING offensive to the outside world (French authorities and everywhere actually). Now if only M can silence us here (a bit of a problem because it just gets more popular).....he's tried (or his fanatic followers have) the bad cop routine (CAC, hacking etc) and that didn't work ,so what's left? The good cop routine. Remember, lies and revisionism mean nothing to him, so anything goes. Yes we have to be open to people and not get TOO hung up on infiltration but it also helps to be vigilant and wary of more lies and revisionism, however it's used ! Dermot the paranoid :)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:58:27 (EST) From: paranoid ex Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Very well expressed Message:

I wish I had your writing skills. Paranoid Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 12:17:01 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: paranoid ex Subject: Hey fellas, how 'bout this line: Message:

Yet, from the analyses of my colleagues, I must conclude that if one's goal is to be free of the guru's monkey trap, then after realizing the facts, a sensible person must gradually wean oneself from the psychological clutches apparent in a reverse mode of animosity, too (however clearly understandable, and for which I sympathize). Here our boy uses some of our own 'jargon' (monkey trap) which we all subconsciously (or otherwise) recognize and feel 'kinship.' Yes, nicely done. Rapport established by this point. Then in the same breath, Keith says after 'realizing the facts' (what facts Keith baby?) 'a sensible person must gradually wean oneself from the psychological clutches apparent in a reverse mode of animosity...' Yes y'all you are in the dreaded 'psychological clutches' of the evil 'animosity' reverse mode of the cult of the anti-guru theology. Now be sensible folks and wean your silly asses offa this stuff. What crap. If we saved his boy any time out of the cult this dude should be hallaluia'ing bigtime and sendin' both me and John big fat Paypal donations.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:30:49 (EST) From: Gail Email: None To: Keith Subject: Easy for you to say, Keith, but... Message:

The fact is that you and your wife may have had more to do with your son's decision to join the cult in the first place than you are willing to admit. The things he was running from at that time will now be snapping at his heels. Ask a holocaust victim to get over it. We enlisted in Concentration Camp 101. Some cult members who post here actually suffered long-term ill effects from malnutrition at the hands of the cult. The niggardly meals in the ashram were dangerously low in protein. At the very least, avid premies (PWKs nowadays) display Stockholm syndrome during their time in the cult and concentration-camp victim fallout afterwards. You are deluded to think that your son is over it, if, in fact, your story is true at all. We tried to erase ourselves. A person doesn't just snap back after 25 plus years of this external and self-inflicted abuse. Of course, on the other hand, you do sound somewhat like the shrink I met shortly after exiting the Lard's Whirled of Knowledge!

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 21:29:18 (EST) From: Pullaver Email: None To: Keith Subject: Re: undefined territory Message:

Thank you very much Keith for stopping by and offering your well considered observations! What might not be apparent to the casual or occasional viewer is just how freeing the act of engaging in (selective)discussions on this Board is. In the short time that I have been posting here I have had many of my pre-conceived notions regarding 'spirituality' meditation, and most certainly Maharaji, challenged and I have found profound encouragement in the company of fellow travellers. There is a board for 'recent ex-ers' which is more sensitive and supportive apparently, but your advice for professional help and guidance is welcome and encouraged (by me at least) - with the caveat that the professional help have some kind of experience dealing with cults, conditioning, and the like.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:56:53 (EST) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Keith Subject: Dear Keith Message:

Dear Keith, Thank you for your thoughtful and caring post. I agree with most all of what you've said. Before reading the rest of what I have to say to you, you might want to read my journey, which is posted under my real name -- Marianne Bachers. Having that information will give you some context for my comments. For regular readers -- I am about to restate information about my past which you've read before... I was involved in the cult from 1972 - 1976, when I was 16 to 20. I lived in the ashram for a year. I went to Millennium. I was a committed devotee of M both in and out of the ashram. When I left in 1976, I thought I left the whole thing behind after counselling and going to law school. The first case I was involved in after passing the California bar was as defense co-counsel in the Larry Layton trial -- the only criminal case in the US which dealt with the mass suicide in Jonestown and the assassination of Congressman Leo Ryan. I got hired to work on the case because of my experience with DLM/EV. I was alarmed to see the similarities between the way Peoples Temple was run and how DLM was run, as well as the similarities between Jim Jones and Maharaji. For the last 15 years, my legal practice has been devoted to representing people on death row in California in the last stages of review of their cases. My life is devoted to saving people from execution. I struggle with life, death, compassion, revenge, love, hate, mental illness, resilience, on a daily basis. If anything, compassion is the compass which guides my life. In 1999, I found EPO. I have been an active and vocal participant ever since. Keith, if you only read the forum for a short while, or check in once in a blue moon, depending on what's happening, you might think that there's a vein a nastiness here. Every once in a while, there is. The forum is a fluid place with many different voices, and people in many different places emotionally and intellectually. When someone seems to be really out there in their posts, someone or two or three will typically pipe up and encourage that person to get help, either on the forum or privately in email. No one who posts here sees the forum as a substitute for therapy. When seething anger or fury erupt at M, it's usually a healthy response to the feelings we were forced to bottle up as good devotees. Violence or the incitment to violence is not tolerated. It is the antithesis of what we stand for. But sharing intense feelings is fine. Sometimes premies come here and disrupt the forum. We get mad about that and fight back. Did you know that premies created a web site called Citizens Against Cyberstalking and named many of us as cyberstalkers because we spoke out against M and the cult? I was one of the people who was falsely accused of criminal activity on this anonymous site. I continue to participate here to support people who just find the site and are leaving or are dealing with issues left unresolved by their involvement. Also, I participate because the cult has not compensated Abi Bray, who as a child was sexually abused by one of the cult's 'saints'. I am here to support others and to speak out about decades old wrongs that need to be righted. I hope this gives you some insight into why some of us choose to remain and participate long after we've left the cult behind. Regards, Marianne Bachers

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:47:39 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Thanks Keith Message:

Thank you for your respectful and caring post. I feel you are sincere in your assesments and, because of that, I will reread your post and glean what may be useful. There are many reasons that people post here. Foremost for myself is a need to put into clear perspective exactly what those many years of involvement with a guru were all about. Richard

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:26:35 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Re: undefined territory indeed Message:

it seems that some people are still trapped; they are defining themselves in reactive and negative terms, within the anti definitions and limitations of the anti-guru theology Melting this down a little we get: people are defining themselves in terms of 'anti guru theology.' One first must accept there is anything 'theological' about deconstructing cult beliefs about gurus. Then you have to stretch to the point that people (presumably the posters here) are 'identifying' with this 'theology.' This is very shaky grounds and I was not surprised when this led to that tired old saw 'move on, get on with your life.' Ho hum. You almost sound like a cult apologist and not someone whose son might well still be in a cult if not for us people who can't move on. Sorry just my thoughts at the moment...

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:42:00 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: gerry Subject: Agreed Ggerry, 'clever' scam [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:13:05 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Keith Subject: I agree keith.. thankyou Message:

the culture of ex-premiedom can be a deceptive trap.. I am not full of the desire for revenge.. but that I have shared this journey, from P to Ex with some remarkable people is something I shall always be grateful for. There are some wonderful thinkers here - and extreme and dominant points of view tend to polarise things into FOR and AGAINST - when life is so much subtle than that. Thankyou for posting.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:35:50 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Yes, you're so right, Loaf Message:

It IS a bit extreme to think Maharaji was a callow fraud. Don't you remember that smile of his? ...sigh

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 03:28:28 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Jim Subject: and you are so right jim Message:

always

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:35:02 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: I once was lost... Message:

I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see. Anth the Ex.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:29:42 (EST) From: Sulla Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Today is my B-day. Happy new year!!!!!!!! Message:

Hi Dog, I don't know. It hurt. But I can still feel happiness. A burden has been removed from my back, but love didn't leave my heart. I'm alive, I'm free. Did you read 'The Teacher of Wisdom' from Oscar Wilde? Well, I think exes could be like the one in the story, who lost the perfect knowledge of God, to gain the perfect love of God. So beautiful! A long time ago I was crying until I was exhausted after reading this poem, longing for whom I couldn't see, neither understand, whose place inside of me, nothing, nobody could fill. I was blind, but He found the way to easy my pain, fulfilling my dream, with a dream. But now was my time to wake up and make the right choice. Can you hear me? Do you exist? Hey! I have my heart back! And you know what? It's filled! Thanks!

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:43:26 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Sulla Subject: Happy birthday, Sulla Message:

and may you have many more. Of course they will be happier than before now that we are freeeeee. Wheeee!

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:43:02 (EST) From: Sulla Email: None To: PatC Subject: Thanks! You made my day... Message:

Thanks Pat, you made my day. Now I can leave and get a life outside this forum. At least for today.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:11:17 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Please define an 'ex' - okay Message:

Hi Dog, I can only speak for myself but here goes. For my first ten years in the cult I was definitely a premie and never entertained any doubts about the purity of the master. By 1983, I had begun to entertain so many doubts that I should have have become an ex-premie. If I had left at that time, I am sure that I would be an extremely bitter ex-premie because of having fresh memories of the cult rubbish I had swallowed for ten years. I would definitely have blamed Rawat. But, being the idiot that I am, I blamed the premies for creating a cult and I stifled my doubts about the oily little businessman from Hardwar and had nothing to do with any other premies but reinvented Rawat in my own mind to take into account his obvious shortcomings. And I lived in that twilight zone of making constant excuses for Rawat for the next 17 or 18 years. So, unfortunately I cannot blame Rawat. I can only blame my own lack of integrity and courage for continuing the charade with him. I could easily have become just another one of the tens of thousands of former premies but I made a decision in 2000 that changed all that. I stopped being a spaced-out fringe premie. Since I had been a regular donor for 28 years, I was invited to participate in the local premie team. That year of seeing how this immoral and creepy cult operated up close turned me into an ex-premie. Almost, but not quite. I decided that I would post on the forum as an ''un-premie.'' I could not bring myself to be so antagonistic to Rawat as the old-timers here because I could not blame Rawat only but had to accept my own complicity. Somewhere in the course of reading and posting here, I realized that my mind had really been filled with a lot of lies and nonsense by Rawat. My resentment of him grew with my growing realization of just how unethical he really is and the CAC attacks completely confirmed my status as an ex-premie. An ex-premie is someone who realizes that Rawat is a really nasty piece of work, a greedy, shallow man concerned only with material goods and his own wealth and pleasure and is totally devoid of any sort of adult responsibility or concern for others. An ex-premie want's Rawat to apologize for misleading premies, lying to them and amassing an enormous fortune at their expense. An ex-premie wants other premies to hear the other side of the story of the ugly, mentally-deformed little conman behind the curtain of carefully edited videos and schmaltzy stage appearances. Right now, Dog, you are probably a former premie not an ex. But once you begin to doubt the purity of the master and walk away, the further you get from him the more obvious his deceitfulness and immorality become until it eventually dawns on you that the man is a dangerous lunatic. That's when you become an ex-premie. As I've said before, it could really help a lot of fringe fence-sitters to go back into the cult and begin to see exactly how secretive, creepy and insane the cult is and to then realize that it is that way because of the person who created it. No matter what you call yourself, Dog, I'm just pleased that at least you are beginning to walk your own walk because that walk will take you away from bondage to Mayaraji towards real freedom. I wish you the very best in untangling the mess that Rawat wove.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:42:19 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: First you had to have been a premie Message:

Your problem, Dog, is that you live in this no-man's land where you never really trusted Maharaji, put up all sorts of filters to screen out whatever you weren't interested in and thus, in my respectful view, were never really a premie. If Maharaji said 'jump' you actually pretended he wasn't talking to you. Now, what was your question again?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:58:59 (EST) From: Depuity Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Very glib, but seriously Jim Message:

Jim, Interesting point, but for the last 25 years or so most people with K would have considered me a premie. I certainly defined myself as one. However, is a premie simply a “lover of truth” (the inner experience of meditation) or is a premie someone who buys into whole cosmology, with for example, with Bal Bagwan Ji as an incarnation of Jesus, Bhole Ji as Shiva, and Marolyn as the Divine Mother of the entire Universe. True, I never bought into that stuff. Couldn’t bring myself to. Never clicked! For me K was always a way to help me get in touch with my soul and make me a better person. You would probably think I failed miserably in that regard, but that’s what K was and always has been for me. A technology to help me get in touch with a deeper part of my being so I can cope. I never felt comfortable with all that “lotus feet” stuff but I have always valued the experience of meditation and I am still grateful to M that I have it. So, is an “ex” someone who: - thinks M is full of shit, hates K, and no longer practices - thinks M is full of shit, but still loves K, and continues to practice - is an atheist/humanist, who still practices, but no longer believes in a higher power - has joined an established religion and continues to practice K in the context of that religion - loves K, continues to practice, but keeps away from Elan Vital - loves K, continues to practice, but continues to hang around and watch videos - loves K, continues to practice, and still sees M as LOTU - values K, continues to practice, but has reservations about M. The reason I asked the question, “What is an ex,” is because if you define an ex as someone who “values K, continues to practice, but has reservations about M,” then I guess I’d be an ex. But if you define it loosely as simply a “lover of truth,” then I’d still be a premie. Your thoughts on this Jim.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 23:50:17 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Depuity Dog Subject: Re: seriously Message:

You give these choices along a continuum: is an 'ex' someone who: - thinks M is full of shit, hates K, and no longer practices I'd say >yes - thinks M is full of shit, but still loves K, and continues to practice I'd say yes - is an atheist/humanist, who still practices, but no longer believes in a higher power I'd say yes - has joined an established religion and continues to practice K in the context of that religion I'd say yes --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- - loves K, continues to practice, but keeps away from Elan Vital this is the beginning of the doubtful zone. if they still hold maharaji above reproach, no, they are not an ex yet. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- - loves K, continues to practice, but continues to hang around and watch videos definitely not exed - loves K, continues to practice, and still sees M as LOTU definitely not ex - values K, continues to practice, but has reservations about M. depends on how deep the reservations about maharaji go. if they can't leave him and still cling to the hope or fear that he is Somebody, no, definitely not an ex

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:32:23 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: None To: Depuity Dog Subject: Re: Very glib, but seriously Jim Message:

Dog, In my not so humble opinion, a person who 'values K, continues to practice, but has reservations about M' is not an 'ex' -- maybe on the verge of being an ex but not quite. I think your 'thinks M is full of shit, but still loves K, and continues to practice' might apply. I thought your inclusion of 'is an atheist/humanist, who still practices, but no longer believes in a higher power' was interesting -- which 'higher power' do you mean? I'd love to know where the definition of 'premie' truly came from -- is it one of those watered down Hindi words that M used to mean what he wanted it to mean, or would anyone well-versed in Hindi give the same definition or even know the origin and definition of the word. I tend to think that if you still have the need to use that term to define yourself -- then you are not yet an 'ex.' My definition of 'ex' is someone who has 'been there, done that and bought the tee shirt' and is now ready to move on and stand on their own two feet, acknowledging that whatever peace there is in their lives has mostly to do with their own efforts and abilities. Sorry, I'd go into this more but my kids just emerged dripping wet from the tub and I have to go catch them now. Best to all, Susan

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 15:43:06 (EST) From: Gail Email: None To: Depuity Dog Subject: Re: Very glib, but seriously Jim Message:

... is a premie someone who buys into whole cosmology, with for example, with Bal Bagwan Ji as an incarnation of Jesus, Bhole Ji as Shiva, and Marolyn as the Divine Mother of the entire Universe. True, I never bought into that stuff. Couldn’t bring myself to. Never clicked! You forgot to mention that you do believe Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe, though, didn't you? Otherwise, you would have grabbed the techniques and left. Why listen keep listening to the old Latin teacher with the same verb declentions year after year? (Maharaji does say, 'The message is the same--blah, bhah, blah!') hehehehehehehe

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:41:51 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Gail Subject: Good point Gail Message:

... is a premie someone who buys into whole cosmology, with for example, with Bal Bagwan Ji as an incarnation of Jesus, Bhole Ji as Shiva, and Marolyn as the Divine Mother of the entire Universe. True, I never bought into that stuff. Couldn’t bring myself to. Never clicked! You forgot to mention that you do believe Maharaji is the Lord of the Universe, though, didn't you? Otherwise, you would have grabbed the techniques and left. Why listen keep listening to the old Latin teacher with the same verb declentions year after year? (Maharaji does say, 'The message is the same--blah, bhah, blah!') hehehehehehehe --- Once the Holy Family thing fell apart (maybe even before) I always had difficulty taking the LOTU thing seriously. Why do I keep going to videos and programs? M inspires me to go within and use the techniques. I'm not going to be inspired to go within by watching TV or films. On the contrary they tell me go 'out.' Buy this and you will be happy. Oh really? Too jaded to buy that!

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:57:01 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: How did you survive 1977-1985??? Message:

Did you just ignore what Maharaji said, over and over and over? Did you think he was just kidding when he said you have to devote to him and surrender to him and serve him? That wouldn't be inspiring to what you thought it was all about. And if that was just lies, and you were fortunate not to believe his lies, why would you believe what he says now? When I stopped believing he was God, he was no longer inspiring, that's for sure. I have a feeling you believe more about M than you say, or you are a bit revisionist in what you once believed. Like Gail said, if it was just the techniques, you would have split with them, because he wasn't telling you to just "go inside" for at least a decade there.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:17:58 (EST) From: Gail Email: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com To: Deputy Dog Subject: Remember the Dog Story? Message:

Remember when Maharaji talked about chaining an elephant (and his pet dog)? If you chain them when they're small, they will believe they are prisoners and won't try to escape later when they are bigger and stronger. Meanwhile, he was busy chaining us, Dawg. Surrender to the holy lotus feet. Surrender to goomraji, now (he would bellow). So, because we didn't think much of ourselves or our lives--we did, sort of! Remember when he pranced around and pretended to be the Lord. He did pretend that, didn't he, Dawg? What sort of teacher pretends to be something he's not? Imagine learning brain surgery techniques from a manicurist masquerading as a brain surgeon! Do you get my point. The fact that he has revised his history should be enough for you to question MJ's veracity and real purpose, n'est pas?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 14:07:25 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Depuity Dog Subject: Real question: what is a premie? Message:

The best way to approach the question, Dog, is to determine what a premie is. Once you do, anyone who stops being one of those is an ex. Simple logic. So what's a premie to you? To me it was someone who accepted Maharaji as their guru which meant trusting him. You, Dog, don't ever have to worry about becoming an ex. That'd be impossible. It'd be like divorcing someone you never married. So what does that make you anyway? Well, a 'Kinda Premie' of course! Thus, the road is open to you to become a Kinda Ex' Does that help?

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 16:33:51 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Real question: what is a premie? Message:

Very funny Jim! Been meditating for 27 years and I’m a 'kinda premie.' Rather than attacking me why not answer my question. Perhaps there are different kinds of premies, all the way from church-ladies to the fringe types who received K and ran. I trusted M when it came to meditation related issues. I did not take to heart his advice on what to eat, how to exercise, how to dress, where to live, who to hang out with, what to do for a living. As an ashram premie you were subjected to different kinds of pressures and 'satsang' than I was. We had a different experience of the 70s. I might have not have trusted M implicitly as you did but I do trust the inner experience of meditation or Spirit. I’ve always decided what is right for me and my family. That’s probably why I’m not as pissed off about M as you are. And why should I follow your definition of premie? IMO I am a premie when it comes to being a “lover of truth.” Instead of a 'kinda premie' how about defining me as a general, non-specific, generic, standard, nonexclusive, or universal premie? Seriously, if it is any consolation to you I have definitely changed my opinion of M after reading EPO and the Forum. I just don’t want ex’es to throw out the baby (i.e. their experience of meditation) with the bath water (i.e. everything else). IMO you are an ex only when you turn against the experience of meditation.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 20:40:22 (EST) From: Pullaver Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Real question: what is a premie?? Message:

I trusted M when it came to meditation related issues. I did not take to heart his advice on what to eat, how to exercise, how to dress, where to live, who to hang out with, what to do for a living. As an ashram premie you were subjected to different kinds of pressures and 'satsang' than I was. We had a different experience of the 70s. If you were a (real) premie in the '70s and 80s (and now into the '90s and the 21st century in a different fashion), there was no escaping what Maharaji was saying about how it is one has the experience of Knowledge. It's about devotion. About surrender. About grace. Maharaji was going to establish peace in this world and those who were able were to move into the ashram. If you couldn't or wouldn't then you lived in a 'premie-house' aspiring to be an ashramite or you lived a dedicated life as a 'householder'. If this trip was real for you then you took it seriously. If Maharaji was Lord or Master or Satguru and you valued the 'inner' experience it wasn't simply a matter of sitting back on your sofa and deciding which of his agyas made sense to you. It just didn't work that way. Jim and I have the advantage of actually knowing who you are in real life. We know that over a twenty five year period you never went to any programs outside your hometown environment, with perhaps one exception. You never donated any money. You didn't do any service. As a premie you toyed with a succession of new-agey philosophies like TM, Psychocybernetics, est, the Forum (what est became), Silva Mind Control, Neurolinguistic Programming (NLP), Dick Sutphen (subliminal tapes) and whatever it was you were describing to Jim a while ago on the Forum where everthing turned all shimmery. Anyways, there is the temptation to deduce that knowledge and maharaji is really just another one of a long line of new age trips that you've dallied in. Even though you have the skinny on the goo-meister you still have been going regularly to video events and finding him inspiring. Further down the page, Joy made a comment to Zoloft (who I think is Auguste/Roger - you know) which was as follows: Why don't you just come right out and say it - that you were the one that got it all along and we were the sad deluded fools for falling for all the devotion in the first place? Get real, Zoloft That kinda says it for me. The difference is the actual degree to which you took it seriously - not the degree of self-congratulatory discrimination that you feel that you exercised over us punters. In essence I feel that you are engaging in a bit of revisionism regarding yourself. Ex-premie? Like Jim says you had to be a premie (and all that entailed) before you can become an ex. At least as far as EPO and the forum is concerned. If you only had a Master that you selectively listened to, there just isn't that much to ex from. Which is also why I was incensed at you calling posters whiners. You have to walk a mile in someone's shoes before you start dispensing advice - at least in this corner of cyberville. Time to hang up yer holster, Deputy.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 18:18:41 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Gotta jump in here! Message:

Hi DD, You said: 'IMO you are an ex only when you turn against the experience of meditation.' I don't get this. You can't turn against the actual experience of meditation, because it is you, if it's anything worthwhile. And it is undeniable, as Jim says right below this post, that Maharaji-as-god-in-a-bod WAS the meditation in the particular cult we were in, despite lip service to something called 'Knowledge.' I have found various types of meditation quite powerful, before, during, and particularly AFTER my cult involvement with MJ. The particular Radha Soami techniques that MJ happened to package for the West as the ultimate knowledge were just that - a random piece of a technology.This is detailed in the many articles and links about Radha Soami on EPO. I guess if MJ's 'Knowledge' initiation was the first (or last) meditation you experienced, then it might become imprinted, gosling style, as the 'truth coming from him.' But you must know that breath meditation is practiced worldwide, and didn't come from him. Don't you? This is really basic, but if you gloss over this one, then all kinds of absurdities take shape (as many of us have experienced). What we mean by being exes is that we are not only people who used to be 'premies' in the sense meant by the cult and its leader (i.e. devoted followers of a teacher who said and advised specific things), BUT ALSO people who have thought through that involvement in the light of our experience or later information, and deliberately walked away from it. From a cultic involvement with a leader we now know to be dishonest. Not from some experience inside ourselves. So, being an ex is different from just being a 'former' premie, in that it implies that we have taken a stand. For me, it's not a stand about resisting and fighting MJ, and certainly not 'meditation,' but about supporting and offering my energy to the process of freedom and self-empowerment. However, for many of us who 'gave our lives,' the process did and does involve saying 'no' to something, and to somebody, more specifically. I totally get that, since you didn't go the whole hog like some of us, it's a whole different kettle of fish for you. And one more thing: it seems to me that by mixing in the generic meaning of the word 'premie,' (i.e. lover of truth) with the context in which we use it here, you are being a bit disingenuous. What we mean when we say we are ex-premies is that we are ex-members of a cult that uses(d) that name for its members, and we definitely feel we love truth. All love to you in your process, Disculta

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:46:25 (EST) From: housemum Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Love this, Disculta ! (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 19:46:55 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Disculta Subject: ****BEST OF FORUM***** Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 00:29:44 (EST) From: Deborah who agrees Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: ****BEST OF FORUM***** [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 17:04:15 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Here's what you never got, Dog Message:

Maharaji WAS the meditation. Think arti .... Meditation begins in the form of our master.... The whole point, if you swollowed it, was that Maharaji was the 'Holy Name'. He was your breath, your soul, your everything. So, the sincere devotee had no choice but to follow his ever word and wish as if it was his own. Frankly, Dog, you were so damn far from that game it's hard to know if you really even understand what I'm talking about. Yes, you went to satsang, programs, lived with premies, all that, but you never bought in. So, you like the guru's meditation techniques? Fine. But don't say you were a premie because .... hey why not Maharaji himself define the term? You know what he would have said about your being a premie back when he was touting his full love /devotion / surrender trip? He did talk about people like you and he would say that -- get this -- you weren't a premie. Hell I bet you were even at some of THOSE satsangs but, obviously, didn't 'get it'.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 15:45:03 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Here's what you never got, Dog Message:

Maybe you are right Jim. I guess I preferred to look for G-d in Spirit instead of a concept in Malibu. I write here to defend K, and I have no right to tell you how to feel. We just see things differently, thats all. Have you ever wondered why I continue to post here? My posting here is out of a genuine desire to help. I see a lot of people on EPO suffering and it bothers me. I see many ex’s 'stuck in their story' who could still benefit from meditation. I see a lot of superstitious claptrap about Maharaji being the source of the experience of K. I say put that 'magical' thinking away and use K to wipe the slate clean. Use the techniques to empower yourself and better the world. The techniques are yours, and if you want to use them without M, believe me, they will still work. I want to say, meditate and empty your self. I want to say, take what you like and leave the rest. I want to say, live and let live. Everything happens for a reason and a purpose and it serves us. Whatever happens, take responsibility. Live in Spirit and put the past into the past. The only thing getting in your way is you. As you said once, 'The best revenge is to live well and be happy.'

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:40:10 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Thanks but no thanks Message:

Dog, K is fake.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 16:01:18 (EST) From: OTS Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: You stepped in your own stuff, Dog Message:

Dog, you say: 'My posting here is out of a genuine desire to help. I see a lot of people on EPO suffering and it bothers me. I see many ex’s 'stuck in their story' who could still benefit from meditation.' Man, are you full of it. Or what? How the hell do you know who would benefit from what? Hun? Are you a miniguru? I guess if you were to consider suicide it would be by jumping off your ego onto your I.Q., the distant between the two being enough to kill anyone.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 18:09:33 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: OTS Subject: Re: You stepped in your own stuff, Dog Message:

OTS, The Spirit is mentioned in all religions. By focussing on the breath one can quiet the mind. You know, peace? Duh! We are always breathing and it's a good centering device that can bring calm. Remember the old Eagles lyric 'Take it easy, take it easy, don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy.' Breath and mindfullness can help with that. You know the expression, 'Take a breather?' You should try it some time. So you think I'm full of it. Just giving what I consider to be helpful advice to people who I see who are hurting. If you don't like my advice then don't take it.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 31, 2002 at 22:31:59 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: You are insufferably trite Message:

Dog, You're cutting the cake with a very dull knife. 'Take a breather'? What's next, 'Have a nice day'? You take such comfort in 'all religions' but don't you think that all those religions could have been wrong about some things? How many understood the world was round? Any? Aw, forget it. You always were unable to see through the banality and hokiness of shit. Like the time you got your whole household into Norman Vincent Peale's 'How to Win Friends and Influnce People' workshops. CORNY!

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 09:13:21 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, that's Dale Carnegie [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 11:42:36 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Even worse! :) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:37:16 (EST) From: Jerry Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Elementary Message:

An ex is someone who thinks Maharaji's full of shit. At least, that's what defines this ex.

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 12:29:42 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Indefinable. Definitely. (nt) Message:

Indefinable. Definitely. (nt)

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Date: Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 13:02:18 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: cq Subject: but seriously - Message:

Dep, I'll work on my definition of what it means to me to be an ex, if you'll work on yours. You are an ex by now, aren't you?

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