Pat Conlon -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:58:18 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Pat, thanks for your post... -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:43:24 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Above post FROM cynthia TO PatC -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:35:42 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Not so sure, Pat -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:34:23 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Joe, I think your post deserves more of a response -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:39:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- ......and here it is -:- Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 17:33:47 (GMT)

__ CD -:- light -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 11:17:18 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- CD, when Rawat stopped satsang he silenced us -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:11:02 (GMT)

__ __ Bryn -:- light -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 15:42:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- light -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:43:56 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Hey, CD, trying to have a one-way discussion? -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 13:47:04 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- K techniques numb individuality -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:42:13 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- K techniques cause mental conflict and confusion -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:40:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Not 'techniques.' -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:00:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ moldy warp -:- K techniques cause mental conflict and confusion -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 02:07:27 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- Awesome Post--EVERYONE PLEASE READ PATs POST! -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:53:45 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Joy, I really started writing those notes for you -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:57:58 (GMT)

__ Bobby -:- meditation - not just for relaxation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:27:21 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bobby re tantra -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:03:56 (GMT)

__ __ Gregg -:- relaxation and meditation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:46:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- relaxation and meditation, Bobby and Gregg -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:54:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- mental health is numero uno -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:30:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- mental health is numero uno part 2 -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:52:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Helen, I'd be very interested in your diagram... -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:16:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Yes, Helen, I'd like to see your diagram -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:19:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- my theory (or diagram) -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 02:13:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- my theory (or diagram) part2 -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 02:52:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Helen, please repost this as a NEW THREAD -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:03:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bobby -:- spirituality and mental health -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:07:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- spirituality and mental health -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:00:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- mental health is number one: Yes! (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:52:13 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:19:02 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Thanks for the background, Pat (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:39:45 (GMT)

__ Katie H -:- Rev Rawat's simplified ''Knowledge'' -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:34:23 (GMT)

__ __ Bobby -:- Differences with K presentation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:43:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Differences with K presentation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:45:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bobby -:- Differences with K presentation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:35:28 (GMT)

__ Mike Finch -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:56:32 (GMT)

__ __ Bobby -:- post-K spirituality -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:58:20 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Vipassana + m's techniques -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:39:16 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Mike, -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:35:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Pat, please read JHB and my posts re 'agenda' (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:43:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Katie H and JHB re Forum agenda -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:59:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, Pat -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:32:29 (GMT)

__ __ Berni -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:50:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:20:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ berni -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:26:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:56:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ berni -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:13:21 (GMT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Not off topic, Mike -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:12:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Jerry, re meditation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:21:00 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- I agree Mike, and disagree, Pat. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:02:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- You are right, John. Thanks for clearing that up. -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:40:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, John, I completely agree (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:49:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, John, well put! (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:12:17 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H. -:- Pat and Mike - 'Main Agenda?' -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:00:04 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Rev Rawat's meditation -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 15:31:45 (GMT)

__ Wildflower -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:14:19 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- Pat, fancy a discussion? -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 09:58:42 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Pat, fancy a discussion? Sure, Anth but -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:48:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- It got crowded. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:07:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bonne weekend to you to, dear Anth -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:40:31 (GMT)

__ mark -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is nothing -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:21:34 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Poetic posts. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:02:06 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Baie dankie my seuntjie -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:06:42 (GMT)

__ Mercedes -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:15:19 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- A message from the Lowlands. -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:21:49 (GMT)

__ __ Tonette -:- Yes, it can be very hard -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:52:52 (GMT)

__ __ Connie -:- Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:25:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- Mercedes and Connie -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:10:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hey, every body gets the blues -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 08:10:53 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi Mercedes, let's talk by email about that -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:10:34 (GMT)

__ __ Babs -:- Breathing while walking -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 06:03:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Breathing while walking -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:21:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Babs -:- Yes, your dogs are divine, but... -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:09:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Breathing while walking -:- Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:42:23 (GMT)

Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 04:58:18 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:

These are some notes for an article that I am writing (not for FV.) I thought I would post these here for those of you are interested in meditation. I have decided not to talk about that subject here unless it relates directly to the main agenda which is to bring Rev Rawat to account. Part of this article does touch on that.

Last year Chuck began to research the Radhasoami stuff and I began to look into the yoga aspects because I know what a few of the Hindi words mean and because I studied it before meeting Rawat. This article is the result of that research. These are, as I said, only my preliminary notes and, if you are seriously interested, I would suggest that you do your own research. There are many resources on the net as well as your local library. I will not publish the completed article here.

Meditation is variously called dhyana, jnana, kriya, raja yoga. Each school of yoga mixes and matches techniques and other teachings according to whatever tradition they are descended from but there is plenty of overlap and they are all basically the same.

The word ''yoga'' means yoke, bind, tie, unite. The word religion (from the Latin to tie back into) has similar connotations. Yoga or religion simply means practicing being whole, complete. Pure religion without theology is simply a way to be healthy and sane. A healthy mind in a healthy body.

Patanjali, who first wrote about yoga extensively, meant it to be a holistic way to be healthy. His writings are ancient and mixed up with the cosmology of his day but it is possible to see the essence of what he was saying. Hatha yoga was the way to maintain a healthy body. Dhyana yoga was the set of exercises to maintain a healthy mind. (Dhyana means not only meditation but also mind.)

There are similar exercises in the west for maintaining a healthy mind and conscience. These also arose from theological roots and were based on solitary prayer and contemplation to purify what the primitives called the ''soul.'' This has evolved over the years into the modern movement known as ''Science of Mind'' which is a combination of christian ethical humanism and the discipline known familiarly as ''the power of positive thinking.'' Current practitioners of Science of Mind also often do breathing meditation for relaxation.

Dhyana yoga is not the only way to attain peace of mind and probably for many people formal meditation is not even necessary. Meditation techniques are for those people who require ''training wheels'' to attain peace of mind and mental health.

Yoga is surrounded with Hindu mystique and seems so strange and wonderful but the fact is that it is really not much different from sitting quietly and being calm - what the Quakers call ''Silent Prayer.'' The theological and mystical aspects of it are completely a product of the age in which it was first codified. Primitive people thought in terms of invisible forces and other superstitions including calling consciousness ''god.''

I won't go there as my approach to meditation is simply that it is a tool for maintaining mental health. What people want to call peace of mind is up to them. I prefer not to attach theological labels to it.

When you start to study other yoga teachers you begin to see that many of the more modest and ethical teachers actually caution against teaching dhyana yoga to people with strong theological concepts. Some will not teach the techniques to anyone who still believes in any sort of god.

The tradition from which Maharajism sprang was not altogether evil or even overly primitive. It sought to make yoga accessible to the masses. It blended theology (Sikhism or Krishnaism) with yoga teachings in deference to the god-believing householders it was aimed at. Pranayama (breath meditation) became the Holy Name of God. Shabd (the inner sound) became Divine Music. Talabya became Nectar.

I don't know if Rawat Senior started the eyeball-squeezing routine but that was definitely a corruption of that technique. Squeezing the eyeballs produces phonemes which uneducated peasants (and tripped out acid-heads) could believe to be the Divine Light of God.

Rawat Junior has modified this technique from squeezing to light pressure which does not produce phonemes. He has also rid his socalled ''Knowledge'' of much of the Hindu theology but, when he introduced it to the west 30 years ago, he relied heavily on the theological mumbo-jumbo to induce the mass-hypnosis and auto-suggestion that produced our experiences of bliss. His current remaining western premies all still harbor theological concepts if you dig deep enough below the revisionism. AND he still refers to it as GOD within.

Bhakti yoga is designed to ''open the hearts'' of the believers in feelings of faith, love and hope. The darshan contact high is directly related to what we in the west have known as romantic love. When two people ''fall in love'' it means that they lower all psychological barriers and become completely trusting, vulnerable and open to each other. This produces the feelings of oneness and devotion that result in love songs, babies and much western art.

The only tradition of romantic love in India is tantric yoga (yab-yum, Shiva-Shakti, Krishna-Radha) and it is regarded as a religious experience. This is not surprising in a culture that still regards marriage as a business contract forged through arranged marriage. Bhakti yoga, or guru-worship, is completely out of place in the west and as we have seen always produces dysfunctional cults.

In India gurus are accorded similar spiritual status as revivalist christians regard their preachers. There are as many gurus in India as there are preachers in the west. Rawat Senior was the first to pervert this tradition into messianism and as Sitaram points out was practically a christian in this regard. It was no accident that he sent rawat Junior to a catholic school.

The other thing that you will notice as you study yoga is that Rawat Senior and Junior have deliberately taught the techniques incorrectly. They may not have been the first to do so. It could have arisen through ignorance on the part of the Radhasoami gurus or it could have been a calculated move designed to keep people trapped and dependent on the Rawat guru business.

I will not go into detail about the traditional way of using the techniques because FV is not a meditation school. Suffice it to say that, when I made my break with the urug 3 months ago, I decided to go back to doing the techniques the way I did them for two years before I met Rawat. This is the tried, trusted and traditional way.

I did this mostly as a way to free my practice from any connection to Maharajism but I soon discovered that the way that Rawat teaches yoga actually sets up a conflict with the mind. Ethical yoga teachers actually warn against practicing them the way that he teaches them and caution that it can lead to madness and confusion.

This could be happening because Rawat is ignorant and does not meditate or it could be part of the calculated and manipulative Rawat family messiah business. By teaching the yoga incorrectly their students will never graduate but always be dependent on the guru for guidance at best and at worst will be driven insane.

However the biggest lie of all is surrounding it with mystical mumbo-jumbo and giving it the arcane name ''Knowledge'' and setting the mind up as the enemy within. Yoga shows you that the mind is what you are and teaches you self-control and serenity. It is no accident that the word dhyana means both mind and meditation.

It is also no accident that the related Hindi word ''gyana'' means both conscience and consciousness. True yoga and true religion are simply means of attaining mental health, a clear consciousness and a clean conscience, to be at peace with oneself, to be whole, healthy and at ease not ''dis-eased.'' And morality and ethics are all part of it. Honesty and respect of neighbor is essential to peace of mind.

Maharajism is an evil perversion of a simple mental health regimen designed to instill dependence on the guru and keep him in business. If Rawat taught true yoga he would put himself out of business. The techniques are freely available and the means of using those techniques efficiently are best taught by one friend to another as is still the custom among guruless saddhus in India. Guruism is hucksterism pure and simple. And messianic guruism is the greatest evil of all.

I don't believe in theology but, if christians want to know who is the anti-Christ, they would be advised to look at Rev Rawat.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:43:24 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, thanks for your post...
Message:

Hi Pat,

This is very interesting, though I am one of the folks here who stays away from meditation. (I have to tell you that I first wrote 'mediation,' I realized the typo and corrected it, but it's a funny slip, don't you think?) I digress. I learned a lot from your post, Pat.

In particular, I liked this:

''.....The darshan contact high is directly related to what we in the west have known as romantic love. When two people ''fall in love'' it means that they lower all psychological barriers and become completely trusting, vulnerable and open to each other. This produces the feelings of oneness and devotion that result in love songs, babies and much western art.''

I've never been able to put it into words, that darshan thing, and you explained it well. It's clear that the biggest, and most successful aspect of keeping people trapped, as m does, is through his efforts to keep the falling in love thing going. I was emeshed in it, and it's been a difficult thing to break out of. I am free of it now, finally!

Thanks,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:35:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Pat
Subject: Above post FROM cynthia TO PatC
Message:

Well, Cynthia, as the urug said in Portland recently: ''You can only recognize the Master when there is affection.''

Take the love out of the equation and he is obviously just another businessman making money out of the god scam.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:34:23 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Not so sure, Pat
Message:

Very interesting analysis, Pat.

Clearly, as has been commented about on this Forum for years, the the fight with the mind is and was the most damaging part of the practice of knowledge, to which many of us can testify from personal experience. It certainly was miserable, even if it wasn't destructive. But I would be careful in suggesting that simply practicing the techniques would lead to 'madness and confusion.' I just think they are completely ineffective at doing much of anything, besides wasting time. Suggesting that they might actually hurt someone who practices them implies some kind of power that I don't think they have. It's the idea of meditation that the premies 'like' it isn't what they actually do, or what they actually 'experience.' I think the 'mind is the devil,' destructive belief system, exists even if somebody doesn't do the techniques at all. It's completely unrelated to the techniques.

Bhakti yoga, or guru-worship, is completely out of place in the west and as we have seen always produces dysfunctional cults.

Sounds like it's actually out of place in India too. I know there are large anti-Guru movements in India to rid people of what is seen as an archaic, destructive system. But, suggesting that the reason guru-worshp is 'dysfunctional' is because of cultural differences, I think, is false, and actually plays into the cult's argument that the whole problem just boils down to cultural misunderstandings. It's equally bogus in both cultures in my opinion, even though there is more of a history of it in one.

Also, I don't think M's Catholic education is much of an influence in this regard, because the Catholic Church, unlike a lot of other sects, isn't the least bit messianic, and never has been, at least not for several centuries.

Finally, I think calling Maharaji the anti-Christ also gives him more 'credit' than he is due. You make it sound like if he had his head scewed on right he could really help people by spreading yoga techniques that really would promote mental health. Again, since I think those techniques are basically worthless, although some people might find them relaxing (but no more beneficial than a stress-relief/stress management class), I don't think that's true. Fraud, yes. Scheister, yes. But anti-Christ, no.

Finally, despite TM's bogus studies and claims, I have never seen any good evidence that meditation techniques, with or without some kind of belief system attached, promote mental health, and certainly no evidence that they do so to any greater degree than anything else. It's all anecdotal and subjective, always boiling down to the infamous 'this is my experience.'

My point here is that I don't believe Maharaji is just misguided from a 'good' path of helping and teaching people. I don't think, even if he promoted the 'right' techniques, and didn't put himself in the middle of the whole process, that he would really be benefitting anyone. He would be, like Gregg said, be a two-bit relaxation/meditation instructor in some college town, making a meager living on people who think it's groovy to try to get mellow through meditation.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:39:27 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, I think your post deserves more of a response
Message:

than I have time for right now as I have to go to work. You raised too many important points and i want to respond carefully. I'll get back to you.

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Date: Sun, Apr 08, 2001 at 17:33:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ......and here it is
Message:

As promised, Joe, here are my answers to the important points that you raised.

You said: Clearly, as has been commented about on this Forum for years, the fight with the mind is and was the most damaging part of the practice of knowledge, to which many of us can testify from personal experience. It certainly was miserable, even if it wasn't destructive. But I would be careful in suggesting that simply practicing the techniques would lead to 'madness and confusion.' I just think they are completely ineffective at doing much of anything, besides wasting time. Suggesting that they might actually hurt someone who practices them implies some kind of power that I don't think they have. It's the idea of meditation that the premies 'like' it isn't what they actually do, or what they actually 'experience.' I think the 'mind is the devil,' destructive belief system, exists even if somebody doesn't do the techniques at all. It's completely unrelated to the techniques.

Rev Rawat's teachings (for lack of a better word) are of course the most damaging aspect of Maharajism. I always thought that he had mistakenly chosen the word ''mind'' to describe ''uncontrolled imagination'' because English was his second language and he was uneducated. So I cut him some slack. But the fact is that Rawat Senior also used the Hindi word for ''mind'' to define what the ''enemy within'' was. I now realize that it is a calculated strategy to create self-doubt and keep the guru in business.

Yes, the techniques in themselves without the Maharajism are quite harmless. However anyone who practices them is obviously investing some sort of hope or expectation of achieving something from them. It is this expectation, not the techniques, which can be dangerous if unrealistic. The techniques can be harmful if taught irresponsibly and with exaggerated claims as Rawat does.

You quoted me as saying: ''Bhakti yoga, or guru-worship, is completely out of place in the west and as we have seen always produces dysfunctional cults.''

And then commented: Sounds like it's actually out of place in India too. I know there are large anti-Guru movements in India to rid people of what is seen as an archaic, destructive system. But, suggesting that the reason guru-worshp is 'dysfunctional' is because of cultural differences, I think, is false, and actually plays into the cult's argument that the whole problem just boils down to cultural misunderstandings. It's equally bogus in both cultures in my opinion, even though there is more of a history of it in one.

Thank you for pointing that out. I did not make my real thoughts clear there. Guruism may have had a value in the past for peasants IF the guru were ethical but I do not believe that it is a harmless religion. Nine times out of ten it is simply a way of making money and gaining power. I will be very happy to see the end to the guru business altogether here and in India. But the god business is very lucrative and that might not happen over-night.

You said: Also, I don't think M's Catholic education is much of an influence in this regard, because the Catholic Church, unlike a lot of other sects, isn't the least bit messianic, and never has been, at least not for several centuries.

I agree. I raised the point because I wanted to discuss Sitaram's contention that Rawat Senior was a messianic christian but did not develop the thought correctly. My post was only notes. I am still studying the Radhasoami/Christian connection but now I must simply concede that you are right in pointing out my error.

You said: I think calling Maharaji the anti-Christ also gives him more 'credit' than he is due. You make it sound like if he had his head scewed on right he could really help people by spreading yoga techniques that really would promote mental health. Again, since I think those techniques are basically worthless, although some people might find them relaxing (but no more beneficial than a stress-relief/stress management class), I don't think that's true. Fraud, yes. Scheister, yes. But anti-Christ, no.

I added that sentence about the anti-Christ once I had copied and pasted my notes into FV and regretted saying it almost as soon as I clicked the SUBMIT button. I'm an idiot sometimes and cannot resist sounding pompous and exaggeratedly theatrical. I absolutely agree with you.

You continued: Finally, despite TM's bogus studies and claims, I have never seen any good evidence that meditation techniques, with or without some kind of belief system attached, promote mental health, and certainly no evidence that they do so to any greater degree than anything else. It's all anecdotal and subjective, always boiling down to the infamous 'this is my experience.'

Yes, not everyone will get something out of meditation and it definitely is NOT the only way to achieve peace of mind. TM teaches mantras which I know nothing about. But cardiologists now regularly teach pranayama (breath meditation) to lower blood-pressure and reduce stress. It is a technique that is common to most schools of meditation and seems to work for a lot of people but not all.

You end: My point here is that I don't believe Maharaji is just misguided from a 'good' path of helping and teaching people. I don't think, even if he promoted the 'right' techniques, and didn't put himself in the middle of the whole process, that he would really be benefitting anyone. He would be, like Gregg said, be a two-bit relaxation/meditation instructor in some college town, making a meager living on people who think it's groovy to try to get mellow through meditation.

Precisely! And his handful of students certainly would not be able to provide him with homes on four continents, jet planes and fancy yachts. And it looks like Oprah will be putting even those two-bit meditation teachers out of business soon.

No, meditation is like wine. Not everybody enjoys wine or even gets the same result from drinking it. It is not a necessity of life and is merely something to be enjoyed by those who want to do it. Not everyone wants to experience altered states of consciousness.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 11:17:18 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: light
Message:

>I don't know if Rawat Senior started the eyeball-squeezing routine but that was definitely a corruption of that technique. Squeezing the eyeballs produces phonemes which uneducated peasants (and tripped out acid-heads) could believe to be the Divine Light of God.

Have you ever had a positive experience from focusing with the light technique? Not the squeezing or some initial idea that you have seen something. But when you get beyond a point of thought and do experience a deep beautiful feeling and possibly something else that you might find hard to explain but makes you wonder.

CD

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:11:02 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD, when Rawat stopped satsang he silenced us
Message:

You asked: ''Have you ever had a positive experience from focusing with the light technique?''

Yes, I have. Thanks for respondiing. Isn't it nice to be able to talk about it with each other? If we had continued to have satsang we would have all grown and eventually realized that we would like to share this with our friends.

Instead of being secretive and coy about it and putting our friends through Rawat's aspirant nonsense we could have just shown our friends in an open, honest and brotherly way.

But of course that would have put Rev Rawat out of business. There is no need for a guru. Gurus are there just to keep themselves in business. We can get high with a little help from our freinds.

I wish you well.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 15:42:47 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail
To: CD
Subject: light
Message:

Dear CD ,
I notice you say 'focusing WITH the light technique' (my caps). What does that mean exactly? I have to ask because it makes a big difference if I am to try to answer your question. Do you mean 'with' in the sense of merging with, or with in the sense of by means of? If its the latter (by means of}, I must ask: focusing WHAT by means of the light technique?

Or do you actually mean focusing ON the light technique? The questions still remain -WHAT is doing the focusing and what is being focused?

Or do you mean that the LIGHT (technique) is focusing too? On 'you' presumably. The next thing to happen would be that you are going to go WITH the light- a merging with? If this is so I have to ask: what happens to YOU at this point? Are you still in relationship WITH the light? Or have you BECOME the light? If so how do you know this happened to you? Is this 'that feeling'?

The point of all this word play, centered as it is around one tiny loose phrase of yours, is to point to a delusory and institutionalised vagueness that comes with K meditation. If I was a happy premie I would just 'know what you mean' and onward we would go. But I actually suspect you of being (deep down)willfully evasive on this, and wrapping the whole thing up in a convention of imprecision. The reason you do this,I suggest, is because you have had no instruction and have not the faintest idea of what your relationships are to the light, the light technique, thought, feeling, or any of the rest of your meditational life. You are accodingly very vulnerable. If M. had a few less students he could perhaps take the time to clarify.
love Bryn

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 17:43:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: light
Message:

You said: ''The point of all this word play, centered as it is around one tiny loose phrase of yours, is to point to a delusory and institutionalised vagueness that comes with K meditation. If I was a happy premie I would just 'know what you mean' and onward we would go. But I actually suspect you of being (deep down)willfully evasive on this, and wrapping the whole thing up in a convention of imprecision. The reason you do this,I suggest, is because you have had no instruction and have not the faintest idea of what your relationships are to the light, the light technique, thought, feeling, or any of the rest of your meditational life. You are accodingly very vulnerable. If M. had a few less students he could perhaps take the time to clarify.''

Thank you, Bryn, your last sentence said it all. A few hundred students can't supply the money for yachts.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 13:47:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Hey, CD, trying to have a one-way discussion?
Message:

Why should anyone ever answer any of your questions when you won't answer ours? Last time you posted I'd asked you if any of the scandalous things you'd learned here about Maharaji had affected your opinion of him at all. Your answer was to the effect of you like beer or something equally cowardly and ridiculous.

So tell me, why would any one answer any of your questions when you don't do the same?

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:42:13 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: K techniques numb individuality
Message:

This subject is complex to write about. Thanks for the background Pat.

I attribute a large part of my brainless and uncritical perception of myself in relation to M., to the effect of doing K as 'instructed'.

K meditation confused me in relation to the world around me as well. It wildly stimulated my mystical, visionary, tendencies, keeping me in a state of spiritual arrested development.(It makes you baby-like on the inner planes.)

K. made evaluation of myself in the context of what was happening to me impossible. Formulation of an exact overview of what was happening to me 'in there' couldn't be achieved. I am now winning through to such a picture.

Premies accept M's silence on 'within inside' as authority, even delicacy on his part. I don't think it is. It is a veil, a barrier drawn by an eastern perspective, and I reccomend premies to explore the possibility that 'knowlege' is essentialy an entity that needs expanding on.

Love Bryn

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:40:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: K techniques cause mental conflict and confusion
Message:

I am beginning to suspect that the techs were deliberately taught incorrectly in order to create mental unbalance. The main focus in the guru industry is the guru not the yoga. If he taught them correctly people would have just walked away and said thanks, I understand, that's nice. But selling them as mystical and then showing them in a way that creates hallucinations in some susceptible people really is evil.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 20:00:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Not 'techniques.'
Message:

It isn't the 'techniques' that cause problems, it's the belief system. Isnt' that what you mean? The 'techniques' are innocuous; and it's not so much what people even believe about the 'techniques' that is damaging either -- It's what they believe about themselves, about Mahararji, about the system of finding happiness, etc. That's what is really damaging.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 02:07:27 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: K techniques cause mental conflict and confusion
Message:

yeh and there was that whole shit about surrendering = all about guru not techniques . i remember a friend of mine being completely broken down in a pre-K selection process. - crying for hours - all , at the time, supposed to be part of the surrender process. And I remeber someone going temporarily bongos after getting k and going naked in public ( better not reveal details - confidentiality and all that) and bloody Jagdeo being not in the least concerned!

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:53:45 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Awesome Post--EVERYONE PLEASE READ PATs POST!
Message:

Wow, Patrick, that is an awesome post. You said it a thousand times better than I ever could, why I don't believe people should continue to practice 'knowledge' after leaving M. If people wish to continue meditating, find another, more appropriate, less guru-centered way of doing it, there are thousands of them out there.

I know you've been working on this for a long time, and I really appreciated reading it. This post is a 'keeper' and I hope the FA's put it somewhere permanently on the site.

See you soon!
Love,
Joy

P.S. Interesting fact re the phonemes producing the sensation of light. I once had a blinding experience of 'divine light' or whatever you want to call it when opening a very hot gas oven. Completely blinded by light for many seconds. The exact same light I used to see (sometimes!) doing the techniques, only even brighter. Phonemes?

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:57:58 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Joy, I really started writing those notes for you
Message:

I was going to email them to you and then decided that I'd share them here.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:27:21 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: meditation - not just for relaxation
Message:

Hi Pat,

You go into some depth here on meditation as a relaxation device and how that relates to Hindu and contemporary contexts.

Pardon me for perhaps not addressing all your concerns here as I don't have a lot of time for this but I would like to mention just a few things.

For one, meditation is a lot more than a simple relaxation technique for some people. I agree that meditation is effective and valuable for peace of mind and relaxation, but there is much more available. Both Hinduism and Buddhism have identified and developed specific practices and techniques to access deep inner states of awareness.

You state: Yoga is surrounded with Hindu mystique and seems so strange and wonderful but the fact is that it is really not much different from sitting quietly and being calm - what the Quakers call ''Silent Prayer.''

That's really not the case in all contexts. In some cases that is correct, some yogas would involve simple sitting practice (which by the way can be quite full and much more, in my view, than simple mind-calming). However, some yogas are quite involved and bring in many modes with mind, body and spirit. Experiential altered states can be quite active.

You also state: The only tradition of romantic love in India is tantric yoga (yab-yum, Shiva-Shakti, Krishna-Radha) and it is regarded as a religious experience.

Tantra yogas are widely misunderstood. Really they are not about 'romantic love' at all. Tantra yogas are secret mantra teachings and practices designed to bring one to enlightenment.

Your words: True yoga and true religion are simply means of attaining mental health, a clear consciousness and a clean conscience, to be at peace with oneself, to be whole, healthy and at ease not ''dis-eased.'' And morality and ethics are all part of it. Honesty and respect of neighbor is essential to peace of mind.

I agree with this very much and would add that there is more to the spiritual path. Maharaji I don't think has a clue. Actually I think his perception of spirituality is about 'calming' (or getting rid of?) the mind. M seems very grounded in materialism. That could be OK I guess as a basis, but grasping at that brings much suffering.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:03:56 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Bobby re tantra
Message:

Yes, sorry I did use the word Tantra incorrectly but it is the way it is currently understood in the west. I have read that tantra came from Tibet to the pre-Vedic Indus valley and that Shiva may have been a Tibetan. The Shiva Puranas use the word correctly. I wanted to use the phrase shakti yoga or kundalini yoga but did not feel like having to explain those so I chose tantra (in it's incorrect but popularly understood form) as short-cut colloquialism.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:46:52 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: relaxation and meditation
Message:

Good posts, Pat C. and Bobby. Meditation is primarily a form of relaxation for many folks. The 'corpse pose' in hatha yoga, where you lie on your back and progressively relax all your muscles from bottom to top, is very relaxing.

There are some forms of meditation, though, that while very invigorating and refreshing, are not exactly designed for 'relaxation.' I'm referring to 'energy' meditations (often involving breath, visualizations, mantra, chakras, etc.) that are designed to 'change state', or 'access deep inner states of awareness' as Bobby puts it.

The 'four techniques' can sometimes relsult in relaxation or changed state, although Bobby and Pat and I and many other exes have found techniques that work better for us.

It seems as if many of us have found techniques that don't stress the dichotomy between 'inner' and 'outer' that Maharajism was so into. All of the theological dualisms implicit in Maharajism definitely informed our experience of meditation.

This duality encouraged us to do way too much inner monitoring, preferring one state over another. This is the antithesis of what enlightenment is all about, and this is why so few premies ever seemed to experience that relaxed and compassionate and all-inclusive awareness that's labeled 'enlightenment.' We were too tense and selfish and worried and goal-driven and indoctrinated to really 'get it.' I was, anyway!

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:54:38 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: relaxation and meditation, Bobby and Gregg
Message:

I hear both of your viewpoints. I just am very cautious and somewhat reluctant to talk about subjective experiences. For me the starting point is mental health and after that the sky's the limit. My main point was that Rawat completely misses the mental health aspects and we have seen the consequences of that both in his personal life (booze) and in the dysfunctionality of his premies. Without mental health the rest is dangerous.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:30:40 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: mental health is numero uno
Message:

Pat, I am really with you on this, and I have enjoyed reading your analysis. I am fascinated by your well supported hypothesis that M's techniques actually furthered mental conflict. I've heard several people here, including Sir D, say that M's meditation made them feel horrible.

I am in complete agreement with you about mental health being the essential foundation. I believe that it is job number one, kind of like the hard drive on the computer. Everything else is a floppy for me. Spiritual or religious practices that negate, belittle, or minimize mental health are anything *but* 'spiritual.'

Thanks for putting your thoughts up here. I have been working on a diagram which outlines the cycle of trauma of people in cults (what happens to their bodies when they disown their minds). You might be interested in it.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 03:52:33 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat
Subject: mental health is numero uno part 2
Message:

Gurus and teachers who subject their devotees/students to humiliations or enormous stress, or separate them from their loved ones in the name of the devotee's greater 'spiritual growth' or to 'help them surrender' are in the category of mental health killers for me. It's so damaging to people to have spirituality equated with madness, and pain. It's so UN-spiritual for one human being to treat another this way.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:16:49 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, I'd be very interested in your diagram...
Message:

It sounds fasinating and I think it would be of help to me and others.

Would it be possible to post it here?

Thanks,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 05:19:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Yes, Helen, I'd like to see your diagram
Message:

Chuck has just given me an essay on the New Thought Movement. He's studied this for a while but it is all new and facinating to me. Do you know what I'm talking about?

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 02:13:00 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon/Cynthia
Subject: my theory (or diagram)
Message:

Here it is, quickly, before aol bumps me off again. I am not sure how to represent this visually.

The aspirant listens to incoherent stuff over and over again. His/her body and mind want 'out' and the stress pattern begins. At this stage, if the aspirant leaves the cult environment, he or she can recover fairly easily from the stress. Many devotees start to have mental or physical stress symptoms at this point.(diagram 1)

After awhile, the brain that used to work with the body to process and resolve traumatic experiences, switches off and the devotee starts letting others do his/her thinking. This is very pernicious. It's part of the brainwashing process, and sets the chronic patterns of a body-mind split into motion. (diagram 2)

The dynamics in diagram 1 and 2 continue until the devotee begins to see his mind as a separate entity from himself. He has now disowned the Self and has split off from himself. He no longer trusts his own hunches or bodily signals. A good example of this would be Joan Aptor saying that sometimes 'her mind wished that Maharaji would die in a plane crash so this would all be over.' physical or mental problems become worse and start becoming chronic at this stage. (diagram 3)

The devotee is now in a very vulnerable state, having disowned his mind and body. The locus of control is no longer inside him but 'out there.' He sometimes thinks that Maharaji is making his every breath happen or that maharaji is giving him certain experiences in meditation. He has completely bought the concept that the world is not to be trusted and no longer engages in 'worldly' activities. In this vulnerable state it is hard to keep a job, have a fulfilling intimate relationship, or stick up for himself in the normal daily squirmishes that constitute adult life. (diagram 5)

END POINT OF THE CYCLE--digram 6: CONGRATULATIONS MAHARAJI!! You have now re-created the world for someone and made him into a zombie. It will possibly take years for this human being to get out of your grip. He or she will possibly be plagued with chronic mental or physical illness which was set into motion when the mind and body went into a state of splitting and when body systems shut down (a phenomena also called 'hibernation' in fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue research) in an effort to cope with the traumas of cult life.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 02:52:24 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat/ Cynthia
Subject: my theory (or diagram) part2
Message:

The diagram needs to have a feedback loop drawn in around stage 6. The frustrating interactions the devotee has with the world (in stage 6) due to his inability to cope as his brain is no longer functioning, reinforce his superstituous beliefs about the world and cause him to further cling to the meditation and pray to Maharaji. So his frustrations never get resolved, and his childlike coping mechanism (clinging to the lotus feet), keep him dependent and weak.

NOW, how does all this get resolved???

This theory needs something positive at the end. THE HEALING PROCESS, stage 7--Ideally, the person reclaims all his/her disowned thoughts/feelings/physical symptoms. Thus begins the process of the ex-devotee becoming, in the words of Joseph Campbell, 'the authority of his own life.' He gave up the authority or power at the point where he started to disown his own thoughts, feelings, and bodily symptoms as 'other' (or 'Mr. Mind')

BTW, I envision this as one diagram with different stages, so I really should have said 'Stage 1, Stage 2,' etc (instead of 'diagram 1, diagram 2,' etc)

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 08:03:57 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, please repost this as a NEW THREAD
Message:

This thread will be gone by tomorrow and I would like everybody to see this. I was tempted to repost it as a new thread myself but felt that I should ask you to do it first.

Despite the revisionism a lot of this is still taking place albeit in a slightly more subtle way. Please think about posting it as a new thread. It will be sure to generate a lot of discussion. To me, this is the crux of the matter.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 20:07:44 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: spirituality and mental health
Message:

Actually depends on what you mean as 'mental health' as well. Thirty years ago I was diagnosed as schizophrenic. I consider these same 'schizophrenic' experiences to be visionary encounters. They put me way out of balance. However, I could never leave the enormous effect they had on the way I perceive 'what is' and how I live my life.

Conventional psychiatry did not work for me, just as it does not work for many. The psychiatric drugs were poison. Psychiatry and drugs may work for some. The only thing that has worked for me to come to terms with my life experiences are the profound spiritual teachings, for me, this is in Tibetan Buddhism.

I consider authentic spiritual perspectives, whatever they may be, to be vital for those of us who have 'gone off the deep end' and who are more or less mentally dysfunctional vis a vis widely held societal norms.

I have strong interest in spiritual perspectives and practices for mental health survivors and consumers and have done a lot of work in these areas. Next month I'll be doing a workshop called Meditation and the Healing Path.

I agree that meditation for ordinary relaxation is important. Important for me, too. I just wanted to point out that there are other contexts and frames of reference for spirituality. These are notably absent with Maharaji.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 00:00:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: spirituality and mental health
Message:

I'm not a very spiritual person. When I lived in a catholic monastery I was always being told that I was materialistic and had no faith. So I'm not the best person to talk with about that.

The more I have read about schizophrenia and autism the more I am inclined to think that these are not states of insanity but something else altogether which has not yet been explained.

By insanity I mean psychopathy/sociopathy. Other states of mental dis-ease are not insanity but neurosis or being anxious due to imagined fears which probably everybody has exeperienced in adulthood. By sanity I mean having strength, self-confidence, equanimity, serenity and bravery. Having a clean conscience is the most important part.

But I'm an ignoramus when it come to psychology too.

Mostly what I was getting at is that Rawat's Knowledge can actually cause mental instability because he teaches yoga incorrectly probably deliberately to create fear of the mind and dependence on him. Also the concepts that he stuffs down premies' throats are ignorant, negative and designed to create confusion and distrust of one's own reason.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:52:13 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: mental health is number one: Yes! (nt)
Message:

b

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:19:02 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:

All I would like to add is that when, from time to time, I have gone back to the video presentations in the past eight months I have found the pwk's to be very strange. If there are new aspirants, they will be part of a very odd strain of 21st century superstitious people looking for answers from a disgraced teacher when they would be better off in therapy and/or twelve-step programs, etc.

It seems like in many ways the most lasting and pervasive remnant of rawat's teaching and 'knowledge' is spiritual snobbery. Not a very impressive result of thirty years in the west - years where the world has been moving very quickly.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:39:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks for the background, Pat (nt)
Message:

gggggg

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:34:23 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's simplified ''Knowledge''
Message:

Hi Pat -
Re the wrong teaching of the techniques, there was a man that posted here years ago who received K from one of SatPal's mahatmas after the Guru Puja festival in Amherst (don't ask me how he got out to India). He said he was taught NINE techniques - the extra ones involved the breath and emphasis not just on the so-hum sound. (Please do not ask me for the exact details, as he was reluctant to reveal them - but he did say they are around out there).

When he came back to the U.S. he went to one of Maharaji's K reviews and thought that the person giving the review had shortened it by leaving off some of the techniques! He later realized that the supposed 'Knowledge' meditation had been similified for Westerners.

Bobby Manrodt also said something similar to this, based on something he was told, or found out, when he was at PremNagar in 1972 (I cannot remember exactly - if Bobby is out there, maybe he could clarify).

Anyway, they both indicated that the so-called sacred four techniques weren't all there was. This was a big revelation for me - and for others here.

BTW, they have radically changed the way they teach the techniques (although not the number of techniques) since I received K - it's on the site. This also leads me to doubt that these techniques are set in stone and handed down from the ages.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:43:47 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Differences with K presentation
Message:

Hi Katie,

Yes, re: alternate presentations of K.

I was in India at Prem Nagar for the 1971 as part of the 'Westerner' invasion. Divine Light Mission had chartered a 747 that left from England. At this time I was involved with collating and I think stapling some DLM pamphlets. I clearly remember reading through at least a few of these that spoke of more Hindu oriented techniques that were part of knowledge. This included a lengthy references to the value of the sacred syllable OM.

These DLM pamphlets disappeared. I wish I had saved some.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:45:54 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Differences with K presentation
Message:

Hi Bobby -
Wow, synchronicity :)! As I recall, 'om' was used in one of the alternate breath techniques.

Thanks for answering!
Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 18:35:28 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Differences with K presentation
Message:

Hi Katie!

Don't recall whether OM was presented as a breathing thing. Did I say that? Memory gets sparser for some things as I get older... =:)

I love what Francesca signed with a week or two ago,
something like 'a collection of points with perceptions'. Somehow that comes in here and that's pretty much what I think of myself as these days.

Love, Bobby

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:56:32 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:

Hi Pat

A good post, and mirrors what I have been going through recently.

For a month or two now I have been doing the meditation that I originally did 32 years ago before I got K.

This is a form of Buddhist Vipassana meditation, and in essence involves choosing some inner point in yourself, and focusing on it. But you are not concentrating on it in a one-pointed way, but rather you are aware of everything else going on around you and within you, with your peripheral awareness as it were. Having identified being aware of something else, you gently disengage from it and re-focus on whatever your center point is, in this open-ended way.

Now there are many traditions as to what this inner point should be, but many just say it does not matter - it can be anything: your breath, the sensation of air moving in your nose, the rise and fall of your abdomen, the tongue in your mouth, counting your breaths, whatever - it doesn't matter.

As I say, I have been doing this for a while, and find it really good - refreshing, clear, and I have learnt alot about myself in doing it.

A few days ago, I thought: if it doesn't matter what this starting point you choose actually is, what would happen if I used the K
techniques as the central point (one after the other) and practice the Vipassana meditation around them ?

As you said in your post, this is not the Forum to get into meditation techniques, so I won't go into my personal experience, but I find the results interesting.

You also say that the main agenda for this Forum is to bring M to account, as you put it.

For my side, this is not my priority. My priority is to accept that I am where I am now, and to decide where and how to move forward. This is the main reason that I do not post so much on the Forum - the main agenda is not my agenda. That does not mean I don't sympathise with it, just that my time is limited and I have to prioritise, and my priority is 'what do I do now' rather than 'why am I here, or how did I get here, and can I blame M for it'.

This thread topic is unusual on this Forum, but I am delighted to see it, and felt I must post to it. If ever a Forum opens up where this kind of topic IS the main agenda, I will be much more active in it.

-- Mike

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:58:20 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: post-K spirituality
Message:

Hi Mike,

Though I've pretty much consistently practiced meditation from the time I first received knowledge, 30 years ago, I haven't done the orthodox set of techniques for most of that time. As part of my basic set of daily spiritual practice I do my own version of simple breath meditation. I also do kechari mudra, the nectar. I'm now very much a Tibetan Buddhist.

Also, I left M years ago and so, while I sympathize with those who feel hurt and abused, I have no interest in participating in much of what goes on in this forum. Actually I am interested very much in various anecdotal and first person accounts of ex-premies and ex-premies. I've enjoyed your posts.

There is some discussion on the 'Recent ex forum' regarding various takes on spiritual practice. Contact Helen if you are interested in joining.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:39:16 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Vipassana + m's techniques
Message:

A few days ago, I thought: if it doesn't matter what this starting point you choose actually is, what would happen if I used the K
techniques as the central point (one after the other) and practice the Vipassana meditation around them ?

This is exactly the way I've been practicing the k techniques since 1974 (when I also took a Vipassana course - because I was feeling frustrated with m's meditation), and always benefitted from meditation afterwards.

I've always found m's way of explaining the techniques a bit odd, and as a matter of fact I know that most persons who've received k never had a chance to get something from meditation ....

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:35:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Hi, Mike,
Message:

Like you, my priority is not to bring Rawat to account but to move on. But that is the main item on the FV agenda so whenever my interests overlap I will contribute.

Although I haven't checked it out, there is a forum where more of these types of topics are discussed and that is the Recent Exes Forum. Someone here should be able to direct you to that. I haven't had the time to check it out.

Unfortunately I have also become very fond of a handful of posters here and I thoroughly enjoy my conversations with them and end up posting and responding and generally spending far too much time here.

Chuck and I actually did get a forum together to discuss post-Maharajism meditation but it is just sitting there as neither of us have had the time to get it off the ground. Perhaps, if there is interest, we should.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:43:58 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, please read JHB and my posts re 'agenda' (nt)
Message:

Sorry, I feel like I'm spamming this thread!

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:59:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: Katie H and JHB re Forum agenda
Message:

I understood your admonishments that ''bringing Rawat to account is not the only item on the agenda.'' In the short while that I have been here I have seen that the exes do not really have a collective agenda.

I mostly don't like to talk about meditation in particular as it is really only interesting to a handful of people here and also because I am very aware that it is not necessary for most and that there are also many different ways for those who want to do it to practice.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 01:32:29 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks, Pat
Message:

It was just that you said 'the forum agenda IS...', which, as you said above, is not true.

Also, maybe people aren't interested in meditation per se, but I think more people would be interested in discussing life after K. You seem to have gotten a lot of answers to your post, anyway.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:50:38 (GMT)
From: Berni
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:

Hi Mike & Pat,
I enjoyed reading your posts and like what you say, Mike, about having a forum to discuss where we go from here and how to get the most out of life rather than discredit our ex 'master'. I used to pop in to this forum in it's early days and found it useful to read the irreverant jibes and debunking of the whole charabang. I got tired of it all though and became a very irregular visitor - never really adding anything to the debate. Another reason was lack of time and opportunity which is still the case although I do seem to have the odd half hour to peruse the posts lately.
Meditation is an interesting subject and, although its many years since I tried to do it, I still wonder if it has any value. Your writing is very persuasive Pat but I still am not convinced of why sitting still and concentrating on something pretty boring is good for you. I think these days I would also have the problem of grim association with the premie regime even if just sat in the lotus position.
I share Anths view that whatever you see, hear or experience by trying these techniques is nothing 'spiritual'. I don't even know what spiritual means.
However I agree with Katie when she talks about using a method to calm the mind. There are times when worrying about something can keep you awake and even lead to depression. It would be nice to have a technique to control over-thinking. Also to control physical pain. I've seen documentaries where people are being operated on, including a lady having her stomach completely cut open and poked inside whilst she chatted to the nurse, all under the influence of hypnosis. I don't know much about it but self hypnosis sounds like a type of meditation.
Anything to make the cruise through life easier would be good so long as there are no religious connections.
If you don't mind me asking Mike, are you the premie who used to study Nuclear Physics or something similar and give satsang around London a long long time ago (1970's). If so I always enjoyed your intelligent talks, a refreshing change from 'it's like, you know, far out, the lord has come to us this day etc.'.
There were a few times in St Peters Church hall and other such places ( very few) when the pain of sitting on a hard floor and the tiredness,hunger, feelings of inadequacy etc. were in abeyance and somebody was saying something interesting.
I must stop now I'm having an unwelcome flashback
Berni

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:20:15 (GMT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Berni
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:

Bernie writes: 'If you don't mind me asking Mike, are you the premie who used to study Nuclear Physics or something similar and give satsang around London a long long time ago (1970's).'

Yes, that was me.

-- Mike

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:26:08 (GMT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:

Thanks Mike,
An honour to make your aquaintance.
I look forward to your future posts.
Berni.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:56:52 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Berni
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:

Hi Berni -
You can read my post to Mercedes and Connie below to see what I do to calm my mind. I don't know if most people would call it meditation, but it works for me. I want to emphasize that I don't think there is any 'one size fits all' meditation for everyone.

Also, I agree with you that self-hypnosis, as practiced, is a form of meditation.

BTW, I NEVER sit on the floor to do meditation, because of the associations you describe. (Too many memories of wondering when the hour is going to be up!) I sit in a chair or lie down. I WELCOME it if I fall asleep. It's nice not to have strict rules about what you 'should' do.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:13:21 (GMT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:

Hi Katie - we meet again,
Nothing to say really except that I know what you mean.
Falling asleep is ok sometimes.
I am still in two minds about the benefits of 'meditation' although I would love to have some sort of method of turning on and dropping out of the vale of tears that life sometimes seems to be.
Berni

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:12:49 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Not off topic, Mike
Message:

Mike,

On topic posts are NOT limited to trashing Maharaji. Re-examining his lessons and their value, or lack of, is just as much on topic. That includes a re-examination of the meditation techniques he teaches and what they're really good for, or in my case, why they're useless.

If meditation's true purpose is to heighten awareness then meditation, as far as I am concerned, defeats itself, for the simple reason that it ignores the fact that we already ARE conscious. It leads you to believe that meditation is required to achieve something you already are born with.

If you want to 'be in the now', just wake up and realize that you already are. Meditation is not a requirement for this. In fact, it's a waste of time. The only reason I can see for people meditating is if it's a means for them to achieve states of awareness not ordinarilly available to them. Some people seem to be able to do that. I'm not one of them, nor do I want to be.

It's become clear that Maharaji has downplayed the effects of meditation to the point where all you should hope for from it is an appreciation of life. That's a far cry from 'realizing God' which is what the original objective was. When was the last time you heard Maharaji talk about his unique power to reveal God to those searching for him? Looooong time ago.

So, since Mahararaji is no longer in the business of openning third eyes to see God with, and meditation is not even touted anymore as having the ability to do that, who needs it, and what for, to be conscious? We already are.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:21:00 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry, re meditation
Message:

Hi Jerry -
If you want to 'be in the now', just wake up and realize that you already are. Meditation is not a requirement for this. In fact, it's a waste of time. The only reason I can see for people meditating is if it's a means for them to achieve states of awareness not ordinarilly available to them. Some people seem to be able to do that. I'm not one of them, nor do I want to be.

I'm not going to even touch the spiritual aspect of this (for obvious reasons), but I don't think meditation is a 'waste of time'. Waking up and realizing that you are 'in the now' and keeping that perception IS what some people call 'walking meditation'. Regarding sitting down and meditating, it's very helpful to people like me who have extremely active minds. I'm not saying that that is a BAD thing - obviously, it's really helpful to me at time - but sometimes I just need to get away from it, and meditating (of some sort - just focusing on something that isn't a problem I have to solve) really helps me.

I don't see it as being a waste of time - it actually helps me NOT waste time by worrying things to death in my head, and giving me a broader perspective. I would never say that 'everyone should meditate', and I would especially not say that everyone should meditate in a certain way, but I don't think you should discount it for everyone.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:02:16 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: I agree Mike, and disagree, Pat.
Message:

Mike wrote:-

You (Pat) also say that the main agenda for this Forum is to bring M to account, as you put it.

For my side, this is not my priority. My priority is to accept that I am where I am now, and to decide where and how to move forward. This is the main reason that I do not post so much on the Forum - the main agenda is not my agenda.

Although Pat wrote that as though it were an accepted truth, this is far from the case. I'm sure it's true for Pat as he's feeling now, although that could change. No, the main purpose of this forum for me (and I know, for others) is helping exes in the process of coming to terms with having held Maharaji in unreasonably high regard for so long, and then no longer doing so. That includes, of course, our need to decide how to move forward without him. Two other important purposes are helping current premies leave the cult, and informing aspirants about what they're trying to get into.

John.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 23:40:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: You are right, John. Thanks for clearing that up.
Message:

I did word that very badly.

I said: ''I have decided not to talk about that subject here unless it relates directly to the main agenda which is to bring Rev Rawat to account.''

I should have said that talking about meditation, while not the main FOCUS on FV, can be one of the other topics we discuss especially if it helps aspirants to see what they're getting into or helps premies see what they have gotten into or helps exes with similar interests.

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Date: Sat, Apr 07, 2001 at 19:49:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks, John, I completely agree (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:12:17 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks, John, well put! (nt)
Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:00:04 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Pat and Mike - 'Main Agenda?'
Message:

I don't think talking about meditation, or about 'life after Maharaji', as Wildflower brought up once, is off topic OR 'distracts from the main agenda' here. I think it's something relevant that a lot of people might want to discuss - and it has been spoken about here before.

JMHO - but I don't think we should limit the topic here unnecessarily.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 15:31:45 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Rev Rawat's meditation
Message:

Do premies ever practice the meditation of Rawat's Knowledge exactly as he prescribes it? And do they like it?

I gave away my baragon to one of my ashram brothers, years before Rawat advised against baragons. I found all the body postures that require a support to be entirely distracting. I did not want to put my thumbs in my ears, or my fingers on my eyeballs, or my tongue in the back of my throat. And I didn't want to say so hung over and over again or be aware of my breath.

What I wanted was that experience of entering into the silence where the light shines, leaving behind all tensions, to humbly approach whatever higher powers may be, and to find my muse, in order to co-create a worthwhile life where 'Beauty is Truth and Truth is Beauty, and that is all ye know on Earth and all ye need to know.'

I long ago found what works for me, and I don't constantly give myself reviews about it.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:14:19 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:

Absolutely fascinating post! You win the historical research award!I am definately interested in pursuing this further with you in person or by e-mail. I will be in touch.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 09:58:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, fancy a discussion?
Message:

I was reading one of your posts below, where you gave the impression you were all for people practising Knowledge, but thought Rawat had been incredible bad PR, for what you see as a valid practice.

When I was shackled to the Captain's feet, one of the things that kept me there was, 'Knowledge.'

I just did the light technique for a few seconds (poke yourself simultaneously in two eyes). My experience was the as when I was a believer. Same if I do the breathing technique, noise in the ear, or snot technique.

I experience exactly the same as I ever did.

The only thing that's changed is that I no longer believe those coloured patterns I see when I press my eyeballs is 'Divine Light'. I no longer believe that when I concentrate on my breathing, I am connecting to the source of inner peace.

I really have thrown all my ideas about the experience away. And what's left? Something on the same level as when you lay on your back and watch those funny, semi transparent, microbe shapes, drifting across your retina on the backdrop of a blue sky.

It's nothing to do with anything sprititual whatsoever. All that stuff is a big belief system.

I think it's all a load of bollocks, like Santa Claus.

Whaddya think Pat?

Anth the icon at last.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:48:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Pat, fancy a discussion? Sure, Anth but
Message:

we'll just end up agreeing with each other.

Like you said: ''It's nothing to do with anything sprititual whatsoever. All that stuff is a big belief system.''

That is my point precisely. Rawat's Knowledge is a perversion of a system of mental-health exercises. It appeals to primitive and superstitious people.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:07:56 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: It got crowded.
Message:

Hi Pat,

I'd just finished breakfast, you'd just started the thread, I thought we could have a little natter with nobody else around. The next thing there's ten million responses and you're fast asleep in bed, or whatever.

Anyway, you weren't around to have an Irish discussion, so I kicked the cat instead.

Bonne weekend Pat.

Anth the 00

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 19:40:31 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Bonne weekend to you to, dear Anth
Message:

I just wanted to add that I use the word Knowedge when talking with current premies for convenience sake. Also I went back because I enjoyed it but that was then and this is now.

Pat, who's been boning up on Rawat's tricks of trade and can't stand snakes.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:21:34 (GMT)
From: mark
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is nothing
Message:

Hi Pat long time no speako

Knowledge it never was
so
Premies we never were
so
Ex Premies we cannot be
so
What are we?

I think
just
well intentioned fools
ignorant of an alien culture
whose
rules, values and objectives differ from ours

as your message
so clearly
explains

Tot siens boetie

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:02:06 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: mark
Subject: Poetic posts.
Message:

mark

sometimes we trash the commas
to make
our messages

like poetry

nearly always a fucking disaster

but yours is different

anthon

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:06:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: mark
Subject: Baie dankie my seuntjie
Message:

I hope you haven't been spying on me here without piping up and saying something. Just kidding. I've been meaning to email you but hesitated because I think you owe me one. Don't want to be pushy. I hope you and your family are well.

En totsiens ook, boetjie.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 05:15:19 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:

Thanks Pat for your insight. Now I am curious as to what's the correct way? I haven't been able to practice since I walked 1.5 months ago the most I've done is sit and breathe.
And also I'd like to say that some days are really hard for me, I get depressed and angry.
At least I know this too shall pass I feel comfort just reading FV sometimes.
Thank you
Mercedes

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 10:21:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: A message from the Lowlands.
Message:

Hi Mercedes,

When I was a premie, it was easy to tell somebody how to stop feeling depressed. Take the magic pill of Captains Rawats Knowledge and everything will be OK.

Now it's not so simple. I don't have anything to say anymore. I feel a bit like someone who is in a crowd, out of which someone has been dragged to be shot. I'd like to feel sorry for that person, but in truth, I'm just glad it wasn't me.

It's two and a half years since I quit. I was a total gung-ho premie. I believed it all. Perfection was a big part of my life, both in the form of the Perfect Master and the experience within. Now it's gone. It all turned out to be made of cardboard. I have to rejoin the human race again, and learn how to be honest with myself.

There is one, massive advantage in this process, which by far outweighs all the introverted perfection of the cult. That is, I'm becoming my real self again. I don't have to force all my ideas about life through the keyhole of the Captains private jet.

So whatever feelings I have nowadays, at least they belong to me. I'm not pissing away my life in cloud-cuckoo land, even if the weather gets bad out here sometimes.

Hang on in there Merc'.

Anth making it up as I go along.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:52:52 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Yes, it can be very hard
Message:

Hell, I exited years ago and I still get angry about the whole shebang! Sometimes I feel spiritually robbed. Jaded. Morose. Thank you M, you fat fuck! How dare you take people's hearts and mangle them! Look at all you have done.
But life goes on. We evolve whether we want to or not. This world has alot of beauty to offer, lots of love. You are far better off than M or the hopeless deluded folks who 'stay in touch.' Talk about depressing. Now that's depressing! How would you like to still be 'one of them?'
Or better yet someone who has exited and who doesn't have some comfort here in the form of the forum? It can be worse.
Hang in there, and if the depression gets too long or prolonged or out of hand go see a doctor. Seriously.

Kindest regards-Tonette

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:25:37 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion
Message:

Hi Mercedes

I know what you mean. I'm going through the same. Sometimes it all seems too much. I keep coming back to FV, reading the good stuff here helps.

Take care.

Hi Pat

Liked your post, as always these type of posts are very helpful.

Take care too.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 16:10:56 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Mercedes and Connie
Message:

Hey to both of you - and to everyone else -
Mercedes, I don't think there is any 'right way' to meditate. This is one of the big problems I have with the knowledge meditation - we were taught that it was the ONLY way. Maharaji made fun of other kinds of meditation - saying things like 'If you meditate on a candle, you'll become a candle' and stuff like that. I didn't want to practice the knowledge meditation after I left M, and I didn't want to practice any other kind of meditation because I had believed some of the things he said. It took me years to do anything similar, and I started with visualization - I guess because it isn't called meditation.

Well, it works better for me than the K meditation ever did. I have an active mind and I am a visual person, and it helps so much to have something to focus on. I just use colors, usually - sometimes light. (I NEVER saw light with the K meditation - not real light anyway.) I have found that it works really well just to visualize it - it doesn't have to appear. Also, looking at a candle seems to work well - and I haven't turned into a candle yet :).

Connie, I am sorry both you and Mercedes are feeling depressed and overwhelmed. I know it can't be easy, but I really believe it is part of the process of losing a belief system. It is sort of like getting a divorce in many ways. Sometimes the depressed feelings seem to go on forever (I know by experience) - but I think it helps to know that other people are going through it and have gone through it and have come out the other side.

Love to both of you,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 08:10:53 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Hey, every body gets the blues
Message:

It's natural. That's why I like torch-singers and opera. It's only natural to be depressed. I sometimes feel that there is a big societal pressure to ''don't worry be happy.'' My god is that boring and exhausting. There are ways to cheer up.

For me the best thing is to make myself strong, stoical and not expect happiness and to think optimistically and creatively. And hard work always helps. Thank god I wasn't born rich otherwise I'd sit on my duff feeling sorry for myself in between Oprah and the next box of chocolates.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:10:34 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Hi Mercedes, let's talk by email about that
Message:

I don't think it's a good idea for me to talk about it here as I am not into teaching. But I'll share it with you privately as friend to friend.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 06:03:30 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Mercedes
Subject: Breathing while walking
Message:

A month and a half? Wow. Sitting and breathing is good.
I still get depressed and angry. It takes time.
Hang in there!
Love,
Babs

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 07:21:30 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Breathing while walking
Message:

Taking the dogs for a brisk walk out here along the coast when the wind whips up salt spray and you can breathe the ozone from the breaking surf - now that's breathing.

Am I the only one who thinks that being at peace is partly an outcome of growing older, mellowing. I'm a lot more tolerant and easy-going. As for the anger and depression - I'm learning teaching myself anger control (especially when driving) and the depression ( I call it the blues) is often accompanied by or followed by some deeper understanding.

My god being happy all the time like these cultists is boring and exhausting when you have to keep up the act. I think that's why Rev Rawat turned to booze. He might be a lot happier now if he had sometimes just come right out and said; ''I'm angry and depressed.''

But I guess messiahs and other dream-peddlers have got to keep up the act. The show must go on.

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 17:09:10 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Yes, your dogs are divine, but...
Message:

I meant 'walking' in the sense of 'just walk away,' walking away from maharajism. I was impressed that Mercedes could 'sit and breathe' on a regular basis, this soon after 'walking.' But if you want to breathe while walking your dogs, hey, I don't have a problem with that either. I think people should breathe while they're doing just about anything except swimming under water.

Love you!
Babs, who breathes even in her sleep

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Date: Fri, Apr 06, 2001 at 14:42:23 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Pat.. Tonette.. Babs..
Subject: Breathing while walking
Message:

Connie...Anth
Thank you everyone, it is good to know it is okay to be depressed and that it will not last forever and if it does I'll do something about it.
There is no way around it but through it so I hang in here for the sake of my sanity.
Love you all...
Mercedes

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