Nigel -:- Passing Through – please define your terms… -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:25:47 (EDT)

__ Passing Through -:- Definitey NIgel -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:42:06 (EDT)

__ __ Silvia -:- You argument dude is unreal! -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 08:52:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ Passing Through -:- Yo dude! -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:30:39 (EDT)

__ __ AJW -:- mentally unstable, depressed, acid head -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:11:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ Passing Through -:- To AJW -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:38:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Didn't we all PT. -:- Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 19:50:40 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- *** J-M - Best of Forum!!! *** -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:08:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- My favorite bit -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:15:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- My favorite bit -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:43:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ Passing Through -:- Gee JHB, where have you been.. -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:38:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Gee PT, where have you been.. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 16:48:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Read it again Deborah -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:52:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Think again PT -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 21:40:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- True (sadly) and he never answered the question... -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:28:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Nigel corrected -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:27:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'clear' or 'clean' - Q still unanswered -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 02:52:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- ''clear up'. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:07:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: ''clear up'. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:48:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- What Maharaji said does matter -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:15:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ bill-jeeze pt, as if feeling your breath -:- negates all other factors. [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:40:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- And finally bill -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:49:15 (EDT)

Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:25:47 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: All Subject: Passing Through – please define your terms… Message:

Passing Through, in a thread lower down you challenged ex-premies to give it their ‘best shot’ to try and come up with something which might convince you M and K were other than ‘clean’ (Your choice of term). To save both your own and others’ time, it would probably help if you could offer some sort of a baseline – a working definition of what you would consider dishonourable behaviour on M’s part. A definition of unclean. For example, you are not persuaded by Way’s assumption that M must have heard something about Jagdeo’s sexually abusing children. Fair enough – we each set our own standards of evidence when weighing-up its persuasiveness. But in this particular case would the itemised minutes of an EV board meeting from 1983 where M was present and Jagdeo discussed qualify? Or maybe the earwitness testimony of somebody who was present? (NB: I have no personal knowledge of any such meeting or evidence – this is a hypothetical example – and I am not specifically talking about the Jagdeo case. In spite of its seriousness, Jagdeos’s activities are peripheral to M’s accountability to premies and exes in a broader sense) For many of us the well-documented lies (eg. about his powers and divinity), his hypocrisy and broken promises provide adequate cause for holding M to account. But nothing, it seems, even in the ‘14 objections’ letter raises the least doubt in your mind regarding Maharaji’s personal integrity, or lack thereof. So could you please give us an idea of the quality of evidence which might make you reassess the man? Unless you can do this there is precious little chance of your having any bottom-line conversation with folks around here. Without such agreed terms of engagement you are wasting not only our time but yours too, IMO. Thanks.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:42:06 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Definitey NIgel Message:

Dear Nigel, It's pretty simple for me. I received K in 1972, within days of first hearing about M & K. For the next 4 months I practiced fitfully without talking to another person with K. During those 4 months, using only the techniques, I became aware that the techniques connected me with a non mental, non judgemental, stillness within me. And the more I practiced the more solid it became, K was creating a subtle but significant change within me.. I went front a mentally unstable, depressed, acid head to a positive, happy, 'found' person. No brainwashing, no satsang, no other influences other that the four techniques. I have practiced them ever since. For me, they are the emotional version of hatha yoga. An hour in the morning keeps me flexible, relaxed and happy. As for M, I have always accepted a clear distinction between M the teacher and PPRawat the human. I don't consider those to roles contradictory. As a teacher, it was M who showed me the techniques and it is M who makes that effort to remind me of the possibilities. As a human, he seems normal to me. Yes, I have obverved him to drink alchohol, swear and tell rude jokes. But so do I. If he is a drug taker or an adulterer, I have no problem with that. Most people I know haved smoke pot or taken Ectasy. And most people I know have also had sex outside their partnership. To me they are non issues. Like condemning the Beatles as musicians because of the drug use, womanizing or John Lennon's 'more popular than Jesus' comment. None of the criticisms leveled at M in this Forum are unacceptable to me. I accept that when M came to the west his opinions, concepts and statements were soaked in Indian spiritual mumbo jumbo. He soon learnt and changed. Don't we all? As for Jagdeo, I know M well enough to know that he would be outraged at Jagdeo's activities. I have no doubt it took a long time for even a hint of Jagdeo's activities to have filtered through to M, passing through dozens of mature adults on the way. All could and should have done more. The fact that M is at the end of this terrible game of Chinese whispers does not make him an accessory. Nor is he responsible for punishing him. What offends me most about this Forum is that behaviour that is acceptable in the posters is unacceptable in M. Let those exes who have got drunk, smoked dope, cheated on the partners, accumulated money, said things 25 years ago that they wouldn't say now, please leave the room! Is there any one left? I don't know? I had to leave the room. PT

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 08:52:56 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: You argument dude is unreal! Message:

As a teacher, it was M who showed me the techniques and it is M who makes that effort to remind me of the possibilities. As a human, he seems normal to me. Yes, I have obverved him to drink alchohol, swear and tell rude jokes. But so do I. So you present your respect to him, kiss his feet, recognize him as THE LaRD OF THE UNIVERSE, savior, you accept him as an authority in your life but he is just another person, with flaws like everyone else.... That shows clearly the level of brainwashing premies have and who put those ideas in your HEAD-IDEAS-HE, maharaji himself, a drunk, materialistic dilussive being who lies to people to get their money to liVe like royalty! YOU APROVE? YOU ARE SICK! Go talk to a shrink. SCRAM, YOU MORON!

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:30:39 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Yo dude! Message:

Hooray! Maharaji was hospitalized for an ulcer in the early '70s. It was common knowledge. He got married in the early '70s. How could any sane person think he was anything else but a normal person doing normal things. PT

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:11:15 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: mentally unstable, depressed, acid head Message:

So PT, when you came along to join the Captain's cult, you were, in your own words, a 'mentally unstable, depressed, acid head'. I guess that gave you the discrimination and understanding to judge carefully what you were getting into. Good job you weren't vulnerable, you might have ended up in a cult. You can smell the smoke, how come you can't see the fire. Do you know anyone who wasn't fucked up on drugs, or emotionally unstable, who got into the cult? Maybe you should look at the wall and read the writing PT. Anth, mentally unstable, fucked on rugs.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:38:14 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: AJW Subject: To AJW Message:

I didn't say I was unintelligent or innocent. I didn't get into a cult, I got into the techniques. PT

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Date: Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 19:50:40 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Didn't we all PT. Message:

I didn't say I was unintelligent or innocent. I didn't get into a cult, I got into the techniques. PT --- None of us wanted to be in a cult PT. We all thought we were doing something of benefit to ourselves and humanity by following the Captain. We could all see the cult, but inwardly diassociated ourselves with it. But if you line up with the rest of them to kiss the Captain's feet, hand over your dosh week by week, and believe all the stuff you're supposed to about 'Perfect Masters' (See Richard 2), and the techniques being, an experience of perfection, or god within or whatever it's called nowaday, then, sorry to be the one to tell you, but you're in a cult mate. Anth, was in there too.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:08:07 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: *** J-M - Best of Forum!!! *** Message:

I know it's unusual (without precedent?) to nominate a premie's post as a BOF, but Passing Through's admissions about Maharaji's behaviour deserve to be stored to back up the exes' testimonies. John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:15:08 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: JHB Subject: My favorite bit Message:

Hi John, My favorite bit of his post is where he describes the typical mental state of someone about to receive knowledge, mentally unstable and fucked up on acid. They really have a big blind spot don't they? Anth, that's how they got me too.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:43:05 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: AJW Subject: My favorite bit Message:

Since we both started off in the same place, how come we ended up so different? PT

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:38:05 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: JHB Subject: Gee JHB, where have you been.. Message:

I would estimate thousands of peope have heard at least one of M rude jokes. He knows more jokes than anyone I know. And hundreds would have seen him drink alchohol at the many functions he attends. Swearing? Well even the most saintly of us slip. I'm just wondering why this perfectly normal behaviour is a revelation to you. PT

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 16:48:00 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Gee PT, where have you been.. Message:

This is small potatoes compared to the REAL reasons why we are here. Stick around, you'll see what some of us mean. You, again, You, posted the silly post taunting us about the drugs and dealers and subsequent supporters of Maha. This was not OUR outburst. Then, you, again you, post to the fact that you know he's a mere womanizing, average joe with a fat wallet. So why are defending him? Why would you propagate? What's Maha's purpose in life? Seriously, you have not come to the realization of what you really believe Maha to be or not to be. Who gives a fuck about the question. News Tip: The forecast for this evening is only cloudy, but believe me baby, their is 100% possibility of precipitation in the morning.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:52:57 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Read it again Deborah Message:

No Deborah I didn't post 'that you(I) know he's a mere womanizing, average joe with a fat wallet. I SAID: IF........ 'IF he is a drug taker or an adulterer, I have no problem with that'. This is one lesson that this Forum never learns. The difference between a personally observed fact and mailicious gossip. PT

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 21:40:20 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Think again PT Message:

Ok, so that was a little paraphrazed, I admit. But your summation of the forum: This is one lesson that this Forum never learns. The difference between a personally observed fact and mailicious gossip. Well PT, this is purely laughable. Many of the people have first time experience and you think because you put that silloy little statement in print that someone will read it and say, 'OH, he told her' without going to read for yourself. Do you realize that you have only ignited a fire under our ambition because of these statements. Do you have any idea where this is about to go? Sending clowns like you to write this shit is stupid. Not because you are a waste of time but because this stupid statement is permanently recorded. You can't erase the post. You are burying yourself and your fucked up shit-for-brains MASTER. It's totally laughable. Everytime you write this shit, you bury yourself more and more. did you watch the video last night, you know, with the neon arrows pointing to God over the Maha gurushit's head? Answer the real questions. Or are you too scared. Yes, you are. You are so fuckin frightened that you think you are actually doing something. Well the more I read that brain-numbing head-be-fucked answers to post the more I realize that premies and EV shit-for-brains are not the targeted market. You are killing the cult as you speak. Thank you.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:28:49 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: JHB Subject: True (sadly) and he never answered the question... Message:

It was PT's own challenge, re. 'best shot' and M being 'clean'. I asked for clarification and we get what...? To 'Passing Through': I think you have a few problems with M and K you are not admitting to yourself. No problem. Most of us have been there. But don't pass through, stick around. Deep down you know it makes sense... ;)

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:27:08 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Nigel corrected Message:

Dear Nigel, Below is my original post. As you can see you are mistaken. There is a world of difference between 'clear' and 'clean' but in your rush to judge you have gone off on a tangent. I am not offering to judge whether M or anyone else is 'clean' what I said was that after reading the postings and allegations in this Forum, I believe M & K are 'in the clear'. Do bother apologizing, it would set a terrible precedent for this Forum. PT Come on! Give me your best shot. I've read all the postings. I still think M and K are in the clear. 30 minute free for all, starting now. PT

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 02:52:17 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Passing Through Subject: 'clear' or 'clean' - Q still unanswered Message:

OK, I misquoted one word. Sorry. But the meaning is essentially the same - whether you talk about M being 'in the clear' or 'clean', you can still set a bottom-line of acceptable behaviour. (Simply rephrase the question: what sort of evidence would convince you M is no longer 'in the clear'?) That is what I was asking for and you have gone to some lengths to avoid anwering that question. The point is, PT, this is your challenge to the exes. You started a whole new thread to make that post. It now sounds like you are saying 'I don't care what M may have done. However flawed his character I still value him as a teacher...' Which is your choice, of course - but if so, what the fuck was the point of your challenge?

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:07:52 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Nigel Subject: ''clear up'. Message:

I was asking for something a little more important than this Forum's puritan pre occupation with M's wealth, marriage, size, the fact he drinks alchohol and comments made as a 15 year old 26 years ago. The Jagdeo stuff is awful and you're anger should be directed to him. I have no reason to disbelieve the statement made in another thread that M says he didn't know until 1999. PT

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:48:35 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: ''clear up'. Message:

Believe me, I'm no 'puritan' and I'm not preoccupied (one word) with Maharaji's wealth except to the extent that he made it off the backs of his cult members, which I used to be. I worked very hard as his slave and I certainly do resent his lifestyle--I'd like some compensation for the illegal work I did for him, so there, Mr. Passing Through. Whoever you are, why don't you take a hike over to Lifes Great (sic) and harrass people there. You certainly don't have the brains, intellect or humanity to think clearly about being in a cult (which you are). Fact is, if you've been meditating on the techniques as taught by the Fatguru, you've been taught incorrectly. Maybe that's why your brain seems damaged. Stop wasting our time with your shallow statements. You don't think logically, in order to do that you ought to ask your guru some questions (but I doubt he'd answer your questions) and if he did, he'd lie, as he always does. Get lost, fuck off, I'm sick of you fucking brainwashed, head in the sand premies. THIS IS AN EX-PREMIE FORUM, get it? EX-Premies. I don't have to be polite to you, nor do I have to tolerate your stupidity. PASS THROUGH, just hit your link to Lifes Great (sic), Pia's site, Charles Glasser's site, or any other EV site that you can heartily agree with. YOU ASSHOLE! Bye Bye!

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:15:14 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: What Maharaji said does matter Message:

Why are you discounting the statements Maharaji made? It was those statements that helped to convince me of his divinity. But it's not just what he said as a 15 year old. He said similar stuff as a 20 year old, and as a 30 year old, and as a 40 year old. Are we allowed to quote him in our discussion with you? John.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:40:24 (EDT) From: bill-jeeze pt, as if feeling your breath Email: None To: Nigel Subject: negates all other factors. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:49:15 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: bill-jeeze pt, as if feeling your breath Subject: And finally bill Message:

I love your nerve. Do I have to check with you before I can give an opinion about something I've experienced? I was there. I lived through it and believe me at first I thought it might have been bio rhythms, karma or coincidence. But no, it was definitely the Knowledge and I've proved it over and over again for 28 years. Give it a try. Surely it can't be bad for you to go within your own body and experience something. PT

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