Helen -:- My theory of mind/body stress of cult followers -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:07:59 (GMT)

__ la-ex -:- great post-similar to one I psted a few weeks ago -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:15:06 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- haven't heard of either (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:55:03 (GMT)

__ Katie H -:- Helen ***BEST OF FORUM**** for your two posts -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 11:46:44 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- thanks Katie -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:02:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Helen, YES and thanks! I have a full mailbox (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:02:04 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- Helen, really excellent. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 03:33:08 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- Helen, really excellent. -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:57:06 (GMT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- Great post, indeed, it takes me back -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:26:29 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- Roger -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:27:10 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- My theory--more -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:11:40 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- a keeper should be part of the site -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:14:00 (GMT)

__ __ Mark -:- A BEST **** -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:25:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- Selene/mark -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:27:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Mark -:- Selene/mark/Holy Smokes -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 04:43:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- that movie is SO BAD it's almost good -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:54:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- that movie is SO BAD it's almost good -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:21:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- I liked the initiation juju and sex scenes also -:- Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:22:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- that movie is SO BAD it's almost good -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:22:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- deprogrammers -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 02:06:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- deprogrammers -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 05:01:22 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Excellent posts Helen. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:58:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- Excellent posts Helen. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:09:01 (GMT)

__ __ Katie Darling -:- Yes, yes, yes -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 14:02:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- Yes, yes, yes -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:13:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Yes, yes, yes -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 15:21:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ G -:- Yes, yes, yes -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:07:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- G/Mercedes -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:33:56 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Great post, Helen - everyone read. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 13:37:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- Great post, Helen - everyone read. -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:18:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- thanks - I've had mailbox problems -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:12:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Great post, Helen - some thoughts -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:01:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Great post, Helen - some thoughts -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:22:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- a question for Richard -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:43:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Precipitation not Participation -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:18:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Precipitation not Participation -:- Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:29:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Yes, 'crystal analysis', Helen -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:49:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- great to hear it,, Lesley! -:- Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:24:11 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:07:59 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Everyone Subject: My theory of mind/body stress of cult followers Message:

Pat asked me to post this as a new thread. It's my theory of the stress cycle of the cult follower.Here it is, quickly, before aol bumps me off again. I am not sure how to represent this visually. The aspirant listens to incoherent stuff (satsang) over and over again. His/her body and mind wants 'out' and the stress pattern begins. At this stage, if the aspirant leaves the cult environment, he or she can recover fairly easily from the stress. Many devotees start to have mental or physical stress symptoms at this point.(stage 1) After awhile, the brain that used to work with the body to process and resolve traumatic experiences, switches off and the devotee starts letting others do his/her thinking. This is very pernicious. It's part of the brainwashing process, and sets the chronic patterns of a body-mind split into motion. (stage 2) The dynamics in diagram 1 and 2 continue until the devotee begins to see his mind as a separate entity from himself. He has now disowned the Self and has split off from himself. He no longer trusts his own hunches or bodily signals. A good example of this would be Joan Aptor saying that sometimes 'her mind wished that Maharaji would die in a plane crash so this would all be over.' physical or mental problems become worse and start becoming chronic at this stage. (stage 3) The devotee is now in a very vulnerable state, having disowned his mind and body. The locus of control is no longer inside him but 'out there.' He sometimes thinks that Maharaji is making his every breath happen or that maharaji is giving him certain experiences in meditation. He has completely bought the concept that the world is not to be trusted and no longer engages in 'worldly' activities. In this vulnerable state it is hard to keep a job, have a fulfilling intimate relationship, or stick up for himself in the normal daily squirmishes that constitute adult life. (stage 4) END POINT OF THE CYCLE--stage 5: CONGRATULATIONS MAHARAJI!! You have now re-created the world for someone and made him into a zombie. It will possibly take years for this human being to get out of your grip. He or she will possibly be plagued with chronic mental or physical illness which was set into motion when the mind and body went into a state of splitting and when body systems shut down (a phenomena also called 'hibernation' in fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue research) in an effort to cope with the traumas of cult life.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:15:06 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Helen Subject: great post-similar to one I psted a few weeks ago Message:

about the steps of brainwashing, by Margaret Singer.I will go back and check the similarities between them. Also, A book by Rober Tif(l)ton, is supposedly the bible of deprogrammers, esp. one chapter. Do you, or anyone else know about it?

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:55:03 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: la-ex Subject: haven't heard of either (nt) Message:

fjhasljsld

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 11:46:44 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Helen Subject: Helen ***BEST OF FORUM**** for your two posts Message:

I'm really impressed! That's some great THINKING there. Love you, Katie

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:02:59 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Katie H Subject: thanks Katie Message:

Did you get my email???

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Date: Thurs, Apr 12, 2001 at 12:02:04 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Helen Subject: Helen, YES and thanks! I have a full mailbox (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 03:33:08 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Helen Subject: Helen, really excellent. Message:

I could just feel going through those cycles. I think this ought to be on the website permanently. I think it explains clearly what a lot of us have said in lots of other ways. Thanks so much for that. Well done.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 22:57:06 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: Helen, really excellent. Message:

Thanks, it would be great for it to be part of the site.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:26:29 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Helen Subject: Great post, indeed, it takes me back Message:

I'll never forget how it all began. First seeing Maharaji speak and not understanding anything because of his accent and rambling discourse. Next was trying to get Knowledge but having to endure the 30 days of satsang to soften up my mind. And, indeed, the whole body/mind split began and I kept telling myself to just hang on until I get the Big Knowledge and then I get away from these crazy people and their crazy shit that they are trying to force feed me. But it was too late and I was hooked. And the whole brainwashing leaves you a completely confused and disempowered person who is always waiting for something to happen by His Grace. Hopefully, premies will read this stuff and consider what has happened to them. And hopefully the general public will read this stuff and avoid getting sucked into being turned into a zombie.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 23:27:10 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Roger Message:

Yeah, there's a turning point between 'must have this knowledge' and 'it's too late' that got all of us. 'Must have this knowledge' was a thought coming from our brains. 'It's too late, I'm totally gone'--was not.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 12:11:40 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: everyone Subject: My theory--more Message:

The diagram needs to have a feedback loop drawn in around stage 5. The frustrating interactions the devotee has with the world (in stage 5) due to his inability to cope as his brain is no longer functioning, reinforce his superstituous beliefs about the world and cause him to further cling to the meditation and pray to Maharaji. So his frustrations never get resolved, and his childlike coping mechanism (clinging to the lotus feet), keep him dependent and weak. NOW, how does all this get resolved??? This theory needs something positive at the end. THE HEALING PROCESS, stage 6--Ideally, the person reclaims all his/her disowned thoughts/feelings/physical symptoms. Thus begins the process of the ex-devotee becoming, in the words of Joseph Campbell, 'the authority of his own life.' He gave up the authority or power at the point where he started to disown his own thoughts, feelings, and bodily symptoms as 'other' (or 'Mr. Mind')

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 18:14:00 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: a keeper should be part of the site Message:

Thanks Helen. I saw myself so much in your descriptions of the cycles. And they can all be very sublte (not always!) which makes it even harder to know where you are at in any given cycle.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:25:22 (GMT) From: Mark Email: None To: Helen Subject: A BEST **** Message:

Best analysis of the process since Harvey Keitel in 'Holy Smoke' - before he lost it !

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:27:17 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Selene/ Mark Subject: Selene/mark Message:

Selene--yeah, the process is subtle, and since the devotee ends up distrusting his/her mind, there is no way to analyze the whole shabang in a coherent way. Pretty smooth way to disempower people, eh? Mark--haven't seen holy smokes. Is it any good? Kate Winslet is someone I am a big fan of, mainly cause she doesn't starve herself ha ha

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 04:43:22 (GMT) From: Mark Email: None To: Helen Subject: Selene/mark/Holy Smokes Message:

All I can say is a very unique movie.On of a kind. With no pat answers on the cult experience, but worthwhile. Certainly thought provoking.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:54:33 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: that movie is SO BAD it's almost good Message:

One of those. god it's bad. But it almost got there. I've been on my best behavior all damned day posting like correctly and all (minus typos of course) so I hate to blow my image but I gotta say Kate Winslett gets really kinky and I thought it was a very sexy scene. Harvey (the deprogrammer) looks like a moron and that is rough coming from me I usually really like him. But I think his doofieness is intentional (?) selene - cycle 4 or 7 ? of deprogramming still have some clusters of some things around my head.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:21:05 (GMT) From: Mark Email: None To: Selene Subject: that movie is SO BAD it's almost good Message:

I agree. Had its moments (especially the sex and darshan scenes) and a bit heavy handed in the end. But certainly looked at the Juju phenomenon with fresh eyes.

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Date: Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 15:22:46 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Mark Subject: I liked the initiation juju and sex scenes also Message:

I believe Pat C refers to it as shakti-put wherein the guru gives the seeker a flash of energy / light. That was very well done and gave some credibility and rational explanation for those 'unexplainable experiences' I had. I was dissappointed in the route the film took though, wherein the Keitel character transferred his long supressed (?) devotion onto Kate Winslet. Erotic but pitiful.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:22:41 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Selene Subject: that movie is SO BAD it's almost good Message:

You think they were trying to make Keitel's character doofy--as in, deprogrammers are kind of doofy? That does seem to be the image. I don't know much about them (deprogrammers) but the image seems sort of like the CIA, covert and not exactly an antidote to the compelling attractions of bliss fixes.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 02:06:12 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: deprogrammers Message:

I haven't even had a friend or acquaintance who's had an encounter with a deprogrammer. It does seem odd, the kidnapping etc. Remember how we all feared Ted Patrick wasn't that his name? I think in my inner self I half hoped he would come out of nowhere and rescue me but you know that brings up an interesting thought, isn't that the same type of helpless conciousness? Wonder how successful deprogramming really is?

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 05:01:22 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Selene Subject: deprogrammers Message:

I don't know much about deprogrammers, deprogramming was banned because it constituted kidnapping. that's another trauma on top of the most recent one of being in a cult. I don't think it really works. About the movie I really didn't like it, he gets totally triggered into sex addiction with Kate and it all gets out of control from then on. And in the end did she really recovered? Dunno. They had an addictive relationship which continued after they were separated...that was not love at all it was insanity. Anyway that was my impression of the movie. Mercedes

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 16:58:14 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Helen Subject: Excellent posts Helen. Message:

I find stuff like this really helpful. Your explanation of how we separate from 'our mind' is a real insight into how we came to give up our free will and ended up in a line to kiss Captain Rawats clay feet. Thanks, Anth who fell asleep on the train, and doesn't know what stage he's at since he woke up.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:09:01 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: AJW Subject: Excellent posts Helen. Message:

HA HA. I also lost the plot somewhere along the line and find it hard explaining to people how I came to recognize some guy as the Lord and kiss his feet. My husband says that something like that wasn't on his 'radar screen at all.' Problem is, it can happen and it did happen. At some point our brains got lazy and we stopped listening to the parts of us telling us to run fer them thar hills!!

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 14:02:00 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Helen Subject: Yes, yes, yes Message:

You and I have discussed this stuff quite a bit - the way the mind and body split, and what pernicious results this causes, like chronic illness. But your analysis, (with its diagrams that can only be seen by the initiates) is very good and clear, and one thing it made me realize is that I split right at the beginning, after 3 days of satsang and receiving knowledge. I had been in a particularly centered place in my life, knowing just what to eat, and doing lots of yoga, and more in touch with myself than ever in my life. Then I remember going and eating a load of crap - not that it's a big deal, but it was different, for me, and a symptom of the split beginning. Then I stopped doing my yoga, which was the thing that had really brought me INTO myself after my dissociated childhood. Then it was all downhill - 'do service all day and all night if you can, and soon you will stand in the palm of his hand' - until I became chronically ill. As for the recovery cycle: It has seemed to me at times that that 'locus of control' which I projected outwards has been lost to my grasp, regarding my physical health, since that time. But just recently I have felt a deep shift (after two decades of illness). Re-integrating body, mind and emotions has been the key for me. Although the cognitive part (realizing the whole thing was false) was a start, for me the absolute key in my healing has been to consciously re-embrace my body and emotions in various ways. They didn't just come running back like sheep when I exited. I have had to give them quite a bit of attention. Thanks for this, Helen darling

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:13:38 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Yes, yes, yes Message:

YES! Embrace your body. I still have so much anxiety in my muscles. I tell my body, 'I am listening' and the pain calms down. My body is still traumatized from all those years I didn't listen to it, when it was breaking down because I wouldn't take care of myself. WOW, intersting that the split happened so suddenly with you. It's different for each person I am sure. Formulating my theory, which is nothing new to any us, but just a conceptualization of it all, has helped me alot. I'm glad there's been a shift with your health. Me too.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 15:21:34 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Helen and Katie Darling Subject: Yes, yes, yes Message:

Helen you wrote: END POINT OF THE CYCLE--stage 5: CONGRATULATIONS MAHARAJI!! You have now re-created the world for someone and made him into a zombie. It will possibly take years for this human being to get out of your grip. He or she will possibly be plagued with chronic mental or physical illness which was set into motion when the mind and body went into a state of splitting and when body systems shut down (a phenomena also called 'hibernation' in fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue research) in an effort to cope with the traumas of cult life. And Katie thank you too for your insight. I don't know when my split begun, it was eary on I'm sure. I am realizing now how I gave all my power away to Rev. Rawat and how much I've suffered because of it. When I left the cult the first time my body was a wreck, totally out of balance. It improved with time and I am still having to be careful with it. The worst for me I think is the damage to my brain chemistry which I am dealing with presently. I am fucked up and yeah I come from a dysfunctional family and maybe that predisposed me to this but the fucking brainwashing performed on us was draconian. Thank you so very much for these posts. Love... Mercedes

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:07:50 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Mercedes Subject: Yes, yes, yes Message:

Yes, viewing 'the mind' as 'the other' is part of the trap. For me, a split happened within my mind. Certain thoughts, like those in favor of Rawat, I judged acceptable and not 'the mind', I didn't even view them as thoughts or concepts. Others I labeled 'the mind', no good, bad, evil, regardless of whether they were true or not. Rawat talked about concepts as being bad, but really he didn't mean all concepts, the concepts he was inflicting us with were excluded from this label. He actually fostered 'the mind', the crazyness that he was presumably warning of us. My reason was telling me something was very wrong with the whole picture. Oh, but that's just 'logic' Rawat said, don't listen to that, just ignore it. What a weird idea, that logic drives you crazy. So the wheels of reason were turning, but they were not in gear, I would not act based on my reason or the 'negative' emotions that were telling me to get out. A major problem with this is that (IMO) it's impossible to warp your mind like this without it harming your entire mentality. I remember thinking 'he's a con man, he's crazy'. I even burned a picture of him many years ago, but I wouldn't get out. I moralized and thought that it was 'bad' to not hold him in the highest regard, despite evidence to the contrary. The feelings of guilt enslaved me.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:33:56 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: G/Mercedes Subject: G/Mercedes Message:

Yes, viewing the mind as other sucks. G, you describe the battle well. The battle was our internal efforts to break free of the incoherent shit in the cult, but we thought the battle was Mr. Mind hurting us. Crazy shit, eh? Mind good, not bad! Mercedes, I wish you good mental health. It's a lifetime process, the first part for me was to learn how to stop beaing myself up.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 13:37:03 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Helen Subject: Great post, Helen - everyone read. Message:

I thought you caught it all perfectly, especially that point about the locus of control shifting until it's 'out there' (which relates to a post I did once called 'the illusion of surrendered control'. You've explained really how people like Joan Apter can refer to the wishes of her mind in the third person. Which, come to think of it, is something all premies used to do when giving satsang. God, what a dysfunctional process to put yourself through...

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:18:06 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Great post, Helen - everyone read. Message:

Thanks Nigel!I have been tryign to email you the info you asked for, 2 times, and it bounced back. What am I doing wrong? Did you get the info you needed? I have it.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 23:12:58 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Helen Subject: thanks - I've had mailbox problems Message:

I think it's either the full moon or (more likely) heavy sunspot activity causing electromagnetic interference... Anyway, I don't have it yet. Perhaps you could send it to both the above address as well as fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk. Thanks, Nige

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 17:01:33 (GMT) From: Richard Email: post@rmi.net To: Helen Subject: Great post, Helen - some thoughts Message:

Absolutely crystal analysis Helen. If you fax me the diagram, I will put it online for all to view. Some thoughts occurred to me while reading your post. 1.) I believe (at least in my case) before Stage 1 can be successful, the initiate has to be 'baited' or 'distracted'. For the mind/body split to occur, there has to be a 'good' reason. For me it was the uniqueness of a teenage guru combined with helping save the world enhanced by unexplainable transcendantal experiences. For others it was inner peace, salvation, lord of the universe, etc. That 'hook' that got me in the first place stayed with me through all the times I observed all evidence to the contrary. It's the one thing that is the hardest to undo because it is the deepest. 2.) I had a predisposition to wanting to escape my ordinary life and my conflicted mind. A conventional upbringing and profound LSD-inspired awakening left me with many unanswered questions. Satsang answered them all. After my unexplainable trips, any explanation would do. 3.) I agree with your entire analysis. I would add that once the 'locus is put out there', it was only natural to project my hopes and dreams for wholeness on Maharaji. He was the One who was perfect, after all, so why not provide him with everything he wanted and treat him with all the respect I would deserve if I was only whole. I'm shit, he's shinola. 4.) Becoming one's own authority. This was how I made my first break in 1987. For 2 years prior, I did a lot of cathartic physical / emotional work. Once I began owning my successes and mistakes I realized I was my own authority. After that, M appeared as an arrogant authoritarian that made little sense. An appropriate quote: Burnout is equal to the energy expended trying to convince the world you are someone you are not.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:22:23 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Richard Subject: Great post, Helen - some thoughts Message:

Love the burnout quote and love your addition of motivation for giving away one's power as an essential ingredient in the diagram. You are so right. In order for stage 1 to happen (listening to hours of incoherent satsang) there has to be some motivational pull keeping the person from saying 'fuck this bunk.' For me, I was sold on the idea of a guru as the key to enlightenment and heard than M could get me there fastest. Funny how that belief drove me to do totally irrational things. Thanks for that, I will add that to the theory--if you don't mind!

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:43:50 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Richard and everyone Subject: a question for Richard Message:

There needs to be another stage before stage 5, the precipitating event when the devotee starts listening to himself again and reclaiming his/her emotions, thoughts and feelings--the drip, drip, drip experience that Anth talked about in his journey. The process of reclaiming one's self can take years. Someone might still call themselves a premie, but be embracing parts of himself or herself, or doubting M in a big way, even in secrecy (not sharing it with other premies). I'd also like to incorporate something like Kohlberg's stages of moral development in my theory because I think that in the process of leaving M, people have a sort of moral crisis. If they can work through that, I think they actually can achieve a higher level of moral development. I'm just having fun here and have no desire to write a dissertation on this or anything! It's just fun for me, to articulate this stuff. It's part of the healing process for me and for many of us here. If we can articulate what happened to us, and name it, we can understand it. And that is the key.

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 00:18:15 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Helen Subject: Precipitation not Participation Message:

There needs to be another stage before stage 5, the precipitating event when the devotee starts listening to himself again and reclaiming his/her emotions, thoughts and feelings--the drip, drip, drip experience that Anth talked about in his journey. I think you mean 'after' stage 5. Excellent idea again. This whole treatise really should be ironed out and kept as a permanent document. After all we were the lab rats in this experiment. For me, all the doubts (drips) kept accumulating but until I chose to be my own authority, my belief in M as the Authority (big 'A') was firm. I just stopped practicing K and seeing M but never really broke the spell. That takes a definitive act (or acts) of turning away. One big way for me was to begin posting on Forum V. Even though I had 'left M & K' in 1986 or so, I reclaimed my authority completely by publicly stating that. It was amazing how much residual unknown fear was released the day I posted under my real name. For others there may be a big 'ah-ha' where it all becomes clear in one swell foop followed by a public declaration or letter to M. So there must be a questioning phase followed by getting answers followed by a definitive break. This could take days or years depending on the individual. Precipitation not Participation

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Date: Tues, Apr 10, 2001 at 01:29:56 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Richard Subject: Precipitation not Participation Message:

And interaction with others seems critical. The support of others and being able to tell them exactly what you are going through, seems to be a big part of breaking loose and getting free. Cults, like dictatorships, rely in being information vacuums, and controlling whatever information gets desseminated. So being able to share information is essential to the waking up process. The Internet is great for that--for taking apart all the prevarications and the myths of Maharaji's little camelot and helping us all see who he really is. There is a lot of fear for people posting their names and venting their anger here. But it really feels good too.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 20:49:21 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Helen Subject: Yes, 'crystal analysis', Helen Message:

Recently, I was horrifyingly awestruck at having 'lost my faith', now it looks more like I lost my faith at eighteen, and have just regained my faith, my faith in myself.

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Date: Mon, Apr 09, 2001 at 21:24:11 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Lesley Subject: great to hear it,, Lesley! Message:

Without faith in oneself there is nothing, nada, zip. I am getting glimpses of that too, for me, and it feels great!

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