We probably know each other since Australia wasn't that big in terms of premie communities -- and we probably even like each other!

I really do believe that Knowledge is what you make of it. Someone else said it in this forum - the more you devote to your belief in K, the more you experience. But that means that you are the source of experience - not Rawat. And I also still believe that anyone can experience these feelings that premies ascribe to Knowledge. Not all do, that is true, and perhaps not all believe that they can -- but the potential is there - finding one's passion and following it is the secret. The experience that Rawat describes can be had through different methods – not just sitting and meditating, although that might be one way for some. Some of my deepest and most peaceful experiences have been on the back of a horse, riding through the fields and feeling totally in tune with myself and my environment. Some of my worst experiences (certainly not ALL, but a significant portion) have been sitting in meditation, feeling that I "had" to do it, when I wanted to be somewhere, anywhere else!

I do not think everyone needs Knowledge, many people are quite OK without it, and I think MJ acknowledged this long ago. This does not mean that when someone else claims it works for them that they must be utilising a "belief system". I consider myself one of the least "believing" people I know, to the annoyance of most acquaintances, most of whom seem to have hitched on to astrology or diet fads or Mormonism or some equally execrable mental straight jacket. I test Knowledge out every day and it doesn't fail. I go to videos once a fortnight and MJ comes through there as well.

You say that that you “test Knowledge out every day and it doesn’t fail” – perhaps you meant to say that you practice every day rather than “test”. Otherwise I wonder what it is that makes you want to “test” it. I don’t “test” out riding every day – I do it because I love it and it feels good. There is no need to “test” it. If I didn’t enjoy it, I wouldn’t do it. You also say that “MJ comes through there as well” – why is it that you have to give him the credit for it? You are the one going to watch a video and you either enjoy it or you don’t. I go to movies – sometimes I like them, sometimes I don’t – they don’t have to “come through for me”. You just seem to be making this so much of a religion. If K and MJ are things that you enjoy – fine – but that’s as simple as it gets. The problem as I see it is that everyone is giving him credit for something that they could get some other way if they could only find their “passion” (what I call it). I didn’t ride horses for over 20 years (especially during my involvement with MJ) but as soon as I started asking myself what REALLY made me happy – I realized that “anyone” (here I mean anyone) can experience peace and joy and fulfillment through their own passions.

I regret if I appear unsympathetic to anyone who has suffered from any cause at all. I have been through some hair-raising garbage in my own life, most of it caused directly by me, but some the inevitable result of being born into a turbulent, Irish-German-English-Scottish, immigrant family. I have found that eventually the only response is to say OK, that happened, and go on enjoying what can be enjoyed. I consider myself fortunate in that I never seemed to have anyone around saying "You poor little thing," and I think that made my recovery quicker. Just a small point.

Actually that sounds sort of sad to me. Sometimes having a kind voice saying “you poor thing” is all you need to help you get up and try again. One of my passions is helping those who can’t help themselves (like animals and children), and just to see them unfold in the warmth of kindness is really inspiring to me. I particularly love seeing a feral cat or an abused child who learns to trust again.

But I am truly sorry that you came into the ashram under pressure, it must have been ghastly. I had some pretty rotten times myself (among the good) and I wanted to be there! Regarding people living there and suffering untreated mental disorders, as I said, I agree that it happened. I just don't think the alternative in 1976 (pre-Zoloft and just about everything else, except Freudianism) was that attractive either. Please don't misquote me. I didn't say there IS no treatment. I just said I didn't think what was available and affordable in those days was up to much. And I don't think it should be forgotten that many ashrams -- I could name a couple of exceptions -- were places of great peace and kindness, that people were quite determined to get into.

I started my psych nurse training in 1976 and we seemed to manage just fine with medications like Modecate (for schizophrenia and lithium (which is still used today for bipolar disorder, as are other medications). I think that both money and beliefs played a part in refusing to seek appropriate medical help for premies with mental health issues.

As for ashram, well, if you lived in ones that were places of “great peace and kindness” then either your reminiscences have been softened around the edges by time (as often happens when we recall the past) or you were damn lucky. I lived in Australian ashrams and found them to be full of power-crazed micro-manager housemothers and housefathers who used double standards in how they applied the rules to different ashram premies. I don’t know how many times I questioned things and was told to “surrender, sister”.

Your statement that Rawat is anti-scientific leaves me going Huh? Please explain.

Well, Rawat has often put down education and I am sure that there are countless quotes that you can dig up to prove this for yourself. Just one -- at Miami recently Rawat said “We are told science is fact. If you believe that you'll believe anything. Whenever there is a fact it has to be made to fit the picture. That's how much of a fact it is.”

I disagree that "Ashrams started out poor because all the money was sent to Rawat." I was a Community Coordinator in Australia for several years, and it didn't happen. The separation was meticulous. I can't speak for the whole world (and perhaps neither should you!) but we were poor because we didn't have any money.

Once again we have different experiences as community coordinators in Australia. There was a lot of financial mismanagement and re-direction of funds, worse at different times according to who was in charge of the money (not always the community coordinator). One of the problems in discussing history however is that we are talking about a 20 year period of time from the early 70s to the early 90s (before I decided to take a giant step back). For example, for one of Rawat’s visits to Australia in the 80s, I was approached to personally donate a large sum of money for a particular “toy” that he had requested and that couldn’t be bought from EV funds. I had recently inherited some money, so felt obliged to give away a big chuck for this “toy”. And not all cash collected from the “box” at programs was written up in the EV books – cash was always used for Rawat because it couldn’t be traced. As I say, different times and different people – that’s probably why we have different memories.

I think all the criticism you level in the rest of your post would be entirely valid if Knowledge were worthless. I can only say that if you really WANT it, and not the fear, status and approval-driven rewards you seem to mention, it works. And he is important to that process. I have tried it both ways, with and without. With is better.

You say, “if you really WANT it” – what is this apart from a belief? So, if you don’t really WANT it – then it doesn’t work – how real is that? It either works or it doesn't. Water is water whether it is put into a cup or a glass, and it still tastes like water. Knowledge should work whether you are "thirsty" or not. Sure, water might taste better if you are thirsty, but you can still tell that's it's water.

You also say that Knowledge is better with Rawat. As long as you preface your beliefs with “in my opinion (which also means “according to my beliefs”), you can say “With is better.” I disagree with you, and that is my “opinion” (or belief). All I am trying to do is take it away from the “ultimate reality” concept. It can’t be universal if it only works under certain conditions.

Oh, a final thing. In my opinion, in the entire collective canon of literature since the English language first evolved, MJ's poetry is the worst that exists, or has ever existed. I trust that I make myself clear. Actually, Sandra's, over at Catswhisker, is not too good either. This second criticism could get me into trouble. I don't think the first will.

Ha ha – that’s funny – and very honest of you, and prefaced by "in my opinion" too! I don’t think I have been forced to listen to any of his poetry so I won’t comment on that – except to say that art is a very strange thing – we all have different ideas of what is “good”.

I fully agree that all this is just my personal experience, but it is very valid for me and probably for other people like me. Did I leave anything important out?

No, you were very thorough. From what you said above about your recovery after bad times – you sound like a very strong person – so I guess I do wonder why you are still feeling that you need a “master” in your life? But since you seem to have your eyes wide open and feel free enough to express your feelings – you are obviously walking on a path that suits you. My main objection to new people being told about Knowledge is that it still seems to be really wrapped up with Rawat – and this is deceitful – he isn’t the ONLY source of either Knowledge, peace, love, or any other experience in this life – he might have some things to offer to some people – but that could be said of many people and many situations.

Thanks for taking time to discuss this with me. If you ever want to email – my address is anniemac@earthlink.net. I don’t mind publishing this because although I get tons of garbage email – I also have a mail washer program that automatically bounces spam for me and blacklists the spammer – neat huh!